Let's see if this generates pro and con views...

[Indy_Guy_77]

As far as I am concerned you can pledge your allegiance to your Prius. Knock yourself out.

Don't get me wrong.

I love this country, what it offers, and what it stands for (generally speaking)

But my allegiance isn't A) to a piece of colored and embroidered cloth or B) primarily to the nation for which it stands.

It's probably 4th - depending on my mood or the circumstances. Both of which affect the other.

1) My God
2) My Wife
3) My Children

tied for "everything else" may be Family, Friends, and Country.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

The problem with rituals and traditions is that the act of the ritual and tradition becomes more important than the purpose of it.

I completely agree. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have rituals and traditions, it just means that you can't always make valued judgements based on every individual's adherence to them. I remember saying the Pledge of Allegiance" before every school day when I was little, wayyyy back in the mid 60's and I don't think I ever was taught what the words to that really meant, I just recited them. It may as well have been Greek to me. (of course there was also every possibility that a teacher explained in great detail what the words meant and I happened to be daydreaming about bugs or worms or something at the moment).

 

[hornadylnl]

I completely agree. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have rituals and traditions, it just means that you can't always make valued judgements based on every individual's adherence to them. I remember saying the Pledge of Allegiance" before every school day when I was little, wayyyy back in the mid 60's and I don't think I ever was taught what the words to that really meant, I just recited them. It may as well have been Greek to me. (of course there was also every possibility that a teacher explained in great detail what the words meant and I happened to be daydreaming about bugs or worms or something at the moment).

"You may ask, how did this tradition start? I'll tell you. I don't know. But it's a tradition."

 

[jamil]

The problem with rituals and traditions is that the act of the ritual and tradition becomes more important than the purpose of it.

I can agree with you on that. Rituals eventually turn into traditions and then we end up doing the rituals just for the sake of tradition.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Wow.

 

[Smokepole]

"...and to the Republic, for which it stands..."

If it were just about the flag, I wouldn't like it either. Because of that second line, I say it happily when the opportunity arises. And as I explained to my 7 year old daughter, it ain't about the cloth.

I like these little rituals. While it can be mindless, it doesn't have to be.

On the same page.

 

[HoughMade]

The problem with rituals and traditions is that the act of the ritual and tradition becomes more important than the purpose of it.

Only if you let it.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

This also reminds me about a story I heard on the radio not long after 911. In one small town somewhere in the northeast (I don't remember the name of the Town) the local chamber of commerce gave out flags and flag poles so that every business on the main drag could mount them on the wall next to their entrance. The person telling the story said that she commented on the flags in one shop and was told who provided them and how nice it was to show their patriotism. The lady also noticed one shop in particular that did not have a flag mounted and she did not shop there because of that. After several visits into town, always avoiding that one shop, she commented to the man in one store about the business that chose not to mount their flag. The man told her that the owner of that business and his son, who were volunteer first-responders had dropped everything and had traveled to NYC to help at one of the fire stations. The man said he'd promised the owner's wife that he would mount the flag, but hadn't had the time. The lady said she went right over to the place without the flag and bought a bunch of stuff she didn't really need.

 

[Smokepole]

The problem with rituals and traditions is that the act of the ritual and tradition becomes more important than the purpose of it.

For some. For me it is about what the ritual honors and/or celebrates. NEVER about the ritual. The ritual is a purposeful way respect is shown for what is being honored. If it is just about the ritual then it isn't about honor or the REASON for the ritual and never was. Weddings and funerals are rituals too.

 

[halfmileharry]

I don't care for her attitude, thinking, or behavior. I'm hoping that her superiors will take care of this in an appropriate manner.
Saluting the flag was just expected and done during my USMC career. I never thought about it. It's just done.
I know what it symbolizes.
I don't have to respect the leadership of this country.
Just because some pukes don't respect our flag sure as hell doesn't mean I'm not going to.
The flag is a symbol of this country I love so dearly.
You don't have to salute it, respect it, or cherish it like I do but I sure as hell don't have to respect you at all. After all...it's our right to feel this way in this country under this flag.

 

[88GT]

I don't care for her attitude, thinking, or behavior. I'm hoping that her superiors will take care of this in an appropriate manner.
Saluting the flag was just expected and done during my USMC career. I never thought about it. It's just done.
I know what it symbolizes.
I don't have to respect the leadership of this country.
Just because some pukes don't respect our flag sure as hell doesn't mean I'm not going to.
The flag is a symbol of this country I love so dearly.
You don't have to salute it, respect it, or cherish it like I do but I sure as hell don't have to respect you at all. After all...it's our right to feel this way in this country under this flag.

Do you think that one has to salute the flag or pledge allegiance to it daily in order to hold all that it represents in great regard?

I'll be honest, I've never been much for symbolism. For anything. Not in the sense that attaching any deep meaning to the symbol is a way to gauge the innermost feelings of the individual. I've seen way too many people pay homage to a "thing" and then violate the spirit of what that "thing" represents on a daily basis. Why would I honor the "thing?"

 

[Jack Burton]

As a note, I hope that everyone is enjoying this thread (not so much the circumstances that prompted it). I also want to thank everyone for the mature discussion and I am particularly pleased that it hasn't descended into name calling or personal insults.

 

[actaeon277]

As a note, I hope that everyone is enjoying this thread (not so much the circumstances that prompted it). I also want to thank everyone for the mature discussion and I am particularly pleased that it hasn't descended into name calling or personal insults.

Am I still on INGO?
How the heck did that happen?


As I've said. If someone (civilian) doesn't want to, that's fine.
But she's not a civilian.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Am I still on INGO?
How the heck did that happen?


As I've said. If someone (civilian) doesn't want to, that's fine.
But she's not a civilian.

The rate she's going she could be selected for "civilian below the zone", a program that returns one to civilian status quicker than your peers.

 

[KellyinAvon]

A lot of good discussion here. A couple things to remember for the young troops today: everybody does stupid stuff. Stupid stuff that's on the Internet is much worse than stupid stuff captured on polaroid pictures. The military is getting smaller and timing is everything, especially for enlisted troops. Somewhere between 2 and 4 years from now a supervisor and a commander will decide if this individual stays in the military (is allowed to re-enlist). 10 years ago? Fighting 2 wars? Different time. Now? A lot of people who didn't do dumb stuff on the Internet will have to go too. In the mean time, the Army has a lot of lawyers. One will recommend to the commander a letter of reprimand under Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) as well as extra duty commensurate with the grade of the commander (the higher rank of commander, the higher the maximum punishment) would be appropriate. Her Area Defense Counsel (ADC) will recommend she take it because if she declines that means a court martial. Unless she has that lawyer who got the Italian gondola killer Navy A-6 pilot and the USS Greenville skipper acquitted, she's gonna lose. One and done in terms of enlistments for this troop. Honorable discharge means GI Bill, VA guaranteed home loan. Will she get a general discharge? I've seen both ways.

 

[philo]

I see it as an Article 15 before she made a public spectacle of the situation online. That should bump it to an article 92 with potential for general discharge.

 

[Lex Concord]

Seriously, how many of you think the Pledge of Allegiance is an oath to the FLAG? ". . . and to the Republic for which it stands . . . "

Personally not a huge fan of the current state of the republic.

While I rarely say the pledge, when I do, I use my own words.

"...pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic which it defines..." I also don't say "indivisible". I'll let folks guess why.

All that said, my first allegiance is to He who must not be named at any time in this place, my second to She who is to be adored at all times and in all places and our children. The rest shuffle in line relative to their potential impact on the first two.

 

[Lex Concord]

Well, you're just one Hell of a guy, aren't you?

No, no she's not.

 

[Draco]

Not to sound daft, but..

..there are punishments in the military other than dishonorable discharge, yes? And dishonorable discharge is kind of like a felony conviction; it brands you for life as a bad person, right?

So, if I am to understand this correctly, many of you want to convict a troop of a bit of a de facto felony for not saluting the flag?

Mind you that this is a person who actually joined the military, which is something only about 1% of Americans do. So, again, if I am to understand correctly, someone volunteered to go to war for you but decided to be an idiot for a while, and rather than credit said soldier for even showing up in the first place, much less her adequate service, the proposed solution is to brand her a traitor to the country?

You all are proposing that we use a canon to kill a mosquito; there are more effective ways of reforming momentary bouts of stupidity than a dishonorable discharge that do not result in a lost asset (i.e. the soldier) while also creating a liability (i.e. unhireable ex-soldier).

Not that I much care about any of this, I just felt like pointing out that wasting assets and hoarding liabilities is generally a bad idea.

Also, one could make the argument that the key phrase is:
“..and the republic for which it stands..,” which thereby puts the flag before country.

See, that is the fun thing about literary arts, for such a trifling amount of effort one can transform anything written into something that reads however the reader wants it to.

 

[hornadylnl]

Not to sound daft, but..

..there are punishments in the military other than dishonorable discharge, yes? And dishonorable discharge is kind of like a felony conviction; it brands you for life as a bad person, right?

So, if I am to understand this correctly, many of you want to convict a troop of a bit of a de facto felony for not saluting the flag?

Mind you that this is a person who actually joined the military, which is something only about 1% of Americans do. So, again, if I am to understand correctly, someone volunteered to go to war for you but decided to be an idiot for a while, and rather than credit said soldier for even showing up in the first place, much less her adequate service, the proposed solution is to brand her a traitor to the country?

You all are proposing that we use a canon to kill a mosquito; there are more effective ways of reforming momentary bouts of stupidity than a dishonorable discharge that do not result in a lost asset (i.e. the soldier) while also creating a liability (i.e. unhireable ex-soldier).

Not that I much care about any of this, I just felt like pointing out that wasting assets and hoarding liabilities is generally a bad idea.

Also, one could make the argument that the key phrase is:
“..and the republic for which it stands..,” which thereby puts the flag before country.

See, that is the fun thing about literary arts, for such a trifling amount of effort one can transform anything written into something that reads however the reader wants it to.