Leaked/breaking:Roe v. Wade expected to be overturned

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  • chipbennett

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    I posted earlier in disagreement with this. I think it's fair to say that a belief in the sanctity of life instills a personal responsibility to help people in need as well as advocating for the life of the unborn. And in light of the ruling, the future will likely have more unwanted children. Sanctity of life extends beyond the womb. So I think it's a fair question.

    But, it's not a logical conclusion that support of overturning RvW instills a responsibility for those kids who are born because of it. Any responsibility for helping is derived from a sense of compassion for those kids. So, if you can't adopt those in need, support organizations who help.
    Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the consenting adults who willingly engage in the course of action that leads to the procreation of a new life.

    That said: who is it, by and large, contributing of their own resources toward remedying such social ills? Generally speaking, the right does so out of their own pocket. The left wants to take from our pockets to give to the government to provide. It is easy to be magnanimous with the compelled taking of other people's money.
     

    chipbennett

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    You mean like inviting illegals to their states?
    Wait until they realize that most of those illegal immigrants come from a culture that is, generally speaking, highly opposed to abortion. I'm not sure that's the win they think it will be.
     

    chipbennett

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    Can the legal experts help answer this.
    OK so the court has struck down the 50 year old law. A law that even the late Ruth judge did not like due to how it was written.

    So could not congress right now correct the law or pass a new abortation for all law. After all the democratic control all 3 "houses".

    :dunno:
    There was no law. There was only a legal decision, which is, by definition, not a law.

    Yes, the Congress had almost 50 years to enact legislation to codify that legal decision, and chose not to do so.
     

    jamil

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    Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the consenting adults who willingly engage in the course of action that leads to the procreation of a new life.
    Sure, but like I've said, we don't live in the world we'd like to imagine, we live in this world. Much of human suffering can be attributed to other humans. So the alleviation of suffering falls to other humans in the world we actually live in.

    That said: who is it, by and large, contributing of their own resources toward remedying such social ills? Generally speaking, the right does so out of their own pocket. The left wants to take from our pockets to give to the government to provide. It is easy to be magnanimous with the compelled taking of other people's money.

    As far as I know, most of the .orgs serving the needs of unwanted kids are church outreach orgs.
     

    chipbennett

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    Well, that’s not actually their worldview thought. That’s really not a lot different from claiming that gun owners have the blood of slain school children on their hands. Obviously, that’s silly. Gun owners don’t have tjat worldview. In our worldview, the only person with blood on their hands is the shooter, but in the case of the cops, when their negligent actions increase the body count beyond what it could have been.

    So with most people who support abortion, they don’t believe it’s a death sentence. And most people who do support abortion, they do believe there is a point in the pregnancy where it is murder.

    I think it’s important to get your viewpoint right. Anti-gun zealots feel their disgust for gun owners is justified because gun owners don’t care about victims of mass shootings. That kind of contempt in the wrong person brings a high potential for justifying violence.

    Getting it right on the other side is just as important. What kind a feelings can you justify if you believe they’re murdering babies? I’m not saying you, but that’s the exact motivation of people who resort to violence against abortion clinics. Worst case it breads justifying violent actions. Best case it gives you contempt for people who may not believve the thing you feel justifies that contempt.
    This is the primary reason that I don't argue/debate abortion with those who support abortion. We have an unresolvable disagreement on a foundational issue: whether or not the developing entity is a living human being. If we cannot resolve that disagreement, then the rest of the discussion is at an impasse. And I agree that neither side does itself or the other side any favors by ascribing moral failure to that disagreement. I do not say that pro-aborts are in favor of "murdering babies", because, while I disagree with their belief, they do not believe that the fetus is a living human being. Thus, "murdering babies" is as much a straw man from the right as is the "just want to control women's bodies" claim is a straw man from the left.
     

    BugI02

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    It's better to be a live dog than a dead lion? Is that it?

    Instead of just being satisfied that they're alive, if you really believe in the sanctity of life, why not care to help them have a good, productive, responsible life? Maybe you can't adopt them. Can you help push, as hard as you pushed to overturn RvW, to make adoption laws less onerous? Because when it was a choice, you guys pushed the idea of adoption over abortion. And that's a way better solution than abortion. But adoption isn't a viable solution to the problem when there will likely be more babies than people who can actually get through the red tape and expense to adopt these kids.

    Can you help in other ways? Or just fold your arms and say, "yep, maybe they live in squalor, at least they're not dead. Hi Five, y'all. We did it!"

    If life is sacred, it's no less sacred after birth. I'm not advocating for abortion. I'm saying the job ain't done if we all really think life is sacred. It's a cop-out to just blame irresponsibility. You guys figured out that it's not the child's fault the parents were irresponsible with sex when the child was in the womb. But outside the womb it's now different?

    While it is difficult to find an exact, accurate number to answer this question, Some sources estimate that there are about 2 million couples currently waiting to adopt in the United States — which means there are as many as 36 waiting families for every one child who is placed for adoption. Based on this couples waiting to adopt statistic, many couples are waiting to adopt.


    Latest available data shows just under 630000 abortions in that year. The backlog of waiting couples is enough to absorb 3 years worth assuming no damping of careless reproduction in the now changed environment. I am not seeing any grave mismatch in numbers of adoptable children vs number of willing adopters. 3 years would seem to be plenty of time for a new equilibrium to establish itself

    The concern is overblown and potentially a cynical tactic to argue to maintain the status quo
     

    chipbennett

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    I'm concerned about the precedence of how this impacts privacy rights outside the scope of the womb connection.
    Please articulate your concern. The Dobbs decision simply said that the constitution is silent on abortion, and therefore the issue is correctly left to the states.
     

    jamil

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    Latest available data shows just under 630000 abortions in that year. The backlog of waiting couples is enough to absorb 3 years worth assuming no damping of careless reproduction in the now changed environment. I am not seeing any grave mismatch in numbers of adoptable children vs number of willing adopters. 3 years would seem to be plenty of time for a new equilibrium to establish itself

    The concern is overblown and potentially a cynical tactic to argue to maintain the status quo
    Part of this has been addressed. The process is onerous and requires a lot of money, patience, time. I'd like to see that process streamlined.

    But my part in this conversation isn't to advocate maintaining status quo. I hope not to see children growing up unwanted.
     

    chipbennett

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    Had a moron tell me today “it’s not murder, it’s not a human being while it’s in the womb, we as males have no idea what it’s like to have a human being growing inside us”!

    I laughed my ass off. I think he actually realized how ****ing stupid he sounded.
    The Party of Science TM!
     

    chipbennett

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    To all these hoes in these United States that are grandmothers, mothers, sisters, wifes, girlfriends, one nighters, tubaligations, incest, mistakes made with god given passion, the one in four democrats and conservative republicans that have had abortions, ...
    Hoes wtf., your book of morals teach you that?

    Edit.
    Its some amazing pedestals most here stand on.
    Because you know its not like someone or four of your family members couldn't possibly have had abortions. Most posts here the members should be ashamed of themselves.
    I don't engage in the ad hominem. I merely point out that more than 98% of abortions are purely elective. I make no judgment on the reason for engaging in the single action that led to conception, because that's not for me to judge. I do point out that we are each responsible for our own actions, especially when those actions are willingly engaged in by consenting adults.
     

    Libertarian01

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    This is bad parenting and bad policy. A pregnancy is far from the only bad thing that can arise from casual, careless sexuality

    I do not think it is the government's place to decide FOR parents what, when and how much to teach their children about sex, either

    To the first point this is exactly why I started with sex education, which you omitted. It isn't just about pregnancy but the entire breadth of knowledge regarding sex.

    Regarding the teaching of sex, why not? What is it that concerns you? Sex is part of science, mostly biology. Sex is simply a biological activity. There are potentially very positive results from sexual activity as well as potentially very negative results.

    At issue is abortion, which is a solution (for good or ill) to unwanted pregnancy. Giving every human being from the earliest time the knowledge and power to avoid unwanted pregnancy reduces the overall need for abortion, which I would think most people would consider a positive overall outcome.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    MCgrease08

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    Ever think of making the parents financially responsible? You know, garnish their wages or put them in jail for failure to pay? Funny you look to society to find an answer, but refuse to look at the responsible parties to be held accountable. Put their azz in a county tent jail like they had in Arizona on bread and water. Make them want the opportunity to step up. Make them hate their punishment. Why do we insist that an uninvolved party be the answer? I know, you don’t want to make the hard, unpopular decisions.
    I'm sure this will convince deadbeats to love their unwanted kids. :rolleyes:
     

    jamil

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    Phrasing it as 'least worst' is just throwing shade. For a finite array of choices, 'least worst' is exactly equal to 'best available'
    I don't understand where you get that it's throwing shade. I think "least worst" more accurately reflects *my* sentiment about politicians than "best available" does.

    I have a cynical view of people who want to be in charge. I look at politicians at best, as "least worst". They're all self-serving in my view. I don't think I've ever been emphatic about a politician I've voted for. Maybe Reagan in '84. '80 was just anyone but Carter. But I was pretty cocksure about it in '84.

    Anyway, that choice of words is all about temperament. It has nothing to do with you being in this conversation. I think we'd get along a lot better sans the lines read between. I agree with you on a lot, but when I disagree it's not personal. And it's not because I think I'm better. It's just a difference of opinion.
     

    BugI02

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    I don't understand where you get that it's throwing shade. I think "least worst" more accurately reflects *my* sentiment about politicians than "best available" does.

    I have a cynical view of people who want to be in charge. I look at politicians at best, as "least worst". They're all self-serving in my view. I don't think I've ever been emphatic about a politician I've voted for. Maybe Reagan in '84. '80 was just anyone but Carter. But I was pretty cocksure about it in '84.

    Anyway, that choice of words is all about temperament. It has nothing to do with you being in this conversation. I think we'd get along a lot better sans the lines read between. I agree with you on a lot, but when I disagree it's not personal. And it's not because I think I'm better. It's just a difference of opinion.
    So, 'your truth', no dispute of the accuracy of my statement. Got it
     

    chipbennett

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    View attachment 208043

    This was posted on the registry of faces earlier.

    My reply of

    was met with a reply that it's a post about bodily autonomy and not a political point.
    That argument also, and fundamentally, ignores the agency involved in the fetus being present in the uterus of the mother. It is not through the agency of the fetus, but rather through the agency of mother and father, that the fetus finds itself in the uterus of the mother. The mother's own actions directly resulted in the outcome; therefore, it is improper to hold the fetus responsible for the result of the action of the mother.
     

    jamil

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    Please articulate your concern. The Dobbs decision simply said that the constitution is silent on abortion, and therefore the issue is correctly left to the states.
    I think he might be getting at how RvW was decided, that they inferred a right to privacy, and under that right they had a right to seek an abortion. So what happens to the right to privacy now that RvW is overturned? It wasn't rejected as far as I can see, on the grounds that there is no such right to privacy. I didn't read all of the decision, but I don't think it addressed that part either way. But mostly, among other things, on the basis on the 10th amendment, powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution are reserved for the States. Since the constitution doesn't mention abortion, it goes to the states to decide.
     
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