Larry Vickers shuns the Serpa..

[esrice]

Then wouldn't saying the Serpa isnt perfect is the wrong way to describe it?

I still think it applies. Any holster that locks the gun into it isn't good for ANY use.

To use my shoe metaphor, it would be like a pair of shoes that you could never get to come off-- it totally defeats its intended purpose.

But I do see what you're getting at.

 

[Gamez235]

I'd face palm myself, but with the force required I'd probably wipe out humanity.

 

[VUPDblue]

Then wouldn't saying the Serpa isnt perfect is the wrong way to describe it?

Based on what VUPD and esrice said, I would think describing that holster, "isn't perfect", is incorrect. You could say the samething about my MTAC. But I doubt anyone has had any malfunctions, or NDs with it.

And I know that VUPD trains all the time, so he knows what he's doing. And yet his Serpa malfunctioned.

I'd think that saying the Serpa is a **** poor design would be the best way to describe it.

It wasn't *MY* Serpa (I say this to re-iterate that I wouldn't buy one) that broke, I just happened to be wearing it as an example of what some guys use. I do think that your quote above in red is accurate.

 

[lovemachine]

I still think it applies. Any holster that locks the gun into it isn't good for ANY use.

To use my shoe metaphor, it would be like a pair of shoes that you could never get to come off-- it totally defeats its intended purpose.

But I do see what you're getting at.

By the way, my wife DID ask 'for what kind of activity' AND 'what season?'

And,'if I had a pair of shoes that would not let go of my foot, I'd be calling it a POS instead of "it isn't perfect"

 

[MilitaryArms]

Ok so everyone has said that Serpa isn't the perfect holster.

What would you call the perfect holster?

OR

If there was a perfect holster, what would make it the perfect holster?

To echo what VUPDblue said, this isn't a discussion about which holster is "perfect".

This is a discussion about the SERPA being banned from many of the big name courses (Gunsite, Vickers, Tactical Response, Saurez, Wilson, etc.) due to it being inherently unsafe based upon a design flaw in the locking mechanism.

You can argue you personally like the SERPA but you can't deny there's a flaw in the design given the volume of professional trainers that have spoken out against it's use - something that has happened to no other holster on the market.

 

[Gamez235]

Besides the fact of the opinion of the trainers, what about their insurance under writers, because I could guess they have an opinion on the matter as well.

 

[dom1104]

Frankly, I cant imagine why someone would care about the Serpa holsters. Just dont get it. One step above a throwaway Fobus imo.

Add dangerous on top of that and its a whole lot of "Why bother".

 

[esrice]

Frankly, I cant imagine why someone would care about the Serpa holsters.

dom I realize that your statement was mostly rhetorical, but as to the reason people "care"-- marketing.

There is a Blackhawk Serpa holster selection in just about every gun shop in America.

 

[Fargo]

My problem with your position is that you ignore the fact we've all said it's the result of both improper handling/training/experience and a defective design. The two together makes for a dangerous situation that can easily be avoided.

So its cool to have improper handling/training as long as you have equipment to cover your butt? IMO, improper handling/training makes for a dangerous situation no matter what else is going on.

Your position also ignores the fact the majority of the gun buying public never attends proper training. Most will buy something like the SERPA, put it on, and start carrying it immediately. Let's not mention that many of the incidents involving the SERPA on training ranges have been at the hands of people with even more training than Mr. Grebner.

Yeah, but that's all about that pesky personal responsibility thing again...

I think there's ample evidence the SERPA is a flawed design. The number of respected training institutions and instructors that have spoken out against their use for safety reasons is staggering. Can you name another holster with such a bad reputation within the professional training community? I can't think of one.

Well, as I can't think of another retention holster used by any appreciable sector of the citizen market, I don't know as that there really is anything to compare it to. The safariland ALS is the only one that comes close but even after Gander Mtn closed them off @ 50% off I still can't think of anyone I've seen out wearing one.

Consider this: everything you have said about the Serpa equally applies to designs such as the 1911 and Glock pistols. 1911's have complicated controls, run cocked and locked with a light trigger, and can fire if dropped. Using one without familiarity and training is a good way to shoot yourself. Glocks run an unsupported chamber and can blow, particularly if using reloads. I recently saw one in .357 sig blow up in a shooters hand while using factory reloads. Both weapons will get you hurt, especially the 1911, if you misuse it and don't do your due diligence.

I don't think either of them are defective designs though...

Best,

Joe

 

[RichardR]

Personally I am more leery of my leather holsters w/thumb strap retention than I am my Serpa, in fact I can pretty much guarantee that lots more ND's have happened when someone's thumb strap gets in the trigger guard while holstering than have happened while someone was drawing from a Serpa.

Does this mean holsters w/thumb straps are poorly designed? or shouldn't be used? that's up for folks to decide for themselves, I still own & use mine, but I am still very careful to thumb my thumb strap out of the way prior to holstering my weapon.

If a ND does ever happen because I failed to remember to clear the thumb strap prior to holstering, so IMHO it wouldn't be the holsters fault, it would be mine.

 

[j706]

Ok so everyone has said that Serpa isn't the perfect holster.

What would you call the perfect holster?

OR

If there was a perfect holster, what would make it the perfect holster?

This is IMO the perfect holster for me. Granted it is a duty holster but it is one lightning fast piece of gear with just about the right amount of retention. There are no doubt people that disagree. For off duty concealed carry I prefer no retention because no one is ever going to know I have it on me. I like the Milt Sparks summer special IWB.

Model 2955 Level II Retention Holster, Low-Ride | Safariland™

 

[MilitaryArms]

So its cool to have improper handling/training as long as you have equipment to cover your butt? IMO, improper handling/training makes for a dangerous situation no matter what else is going on.

I didn't say that, you did.

For whatever reason, you can't see the fault in the design of the SERPA. Far more experienced people than yourself have recognized the fault in the SERPA design and have made their concerns public. People are left with two options: 1) trust that less experienced people claim there isn't a design flaw and the holster doesn't exacerbate safety issues. or 2) Trust highly respected and experienced trainers, now including Larry Vickers, that have come out against the use of SERPA due to safety concerns related to the design of the holster.

Yeah, but that's all about that pesky personal responsibility thing again...

You can take the blame for all the ND/AD's you like. A faulty design doesn't take away from where one can place the blame. However, more experienced people than yourself have determined that the SERPA is unsafe.

Well, as I can't think of another retention holster used by any appreciable sector of the citizen market, I don't know as that there really is anything to compare it to. The safariland ALS is the only one that comes close but even after Gander Mtn closed them off @ 50% off I still can't think of anyone I've seen out wearing one.

Actually, the ALS and SLS holsters is very popular inside of military/LEO and other professional circles. Probably more so than SERPA's. They're all over the place. Just because you don't know this or see them in use doesn't negate their presence in the marketplace. They are considerably more expensive than the SERPA, as much as 3x's so. People tend to go for cheap vs. quality when they don't understand the differences between product lines completely.

Consider this: everything you have said about the Serpa equally applies to designs such as the 1911 and Glock pistols. 1911's have complicated controls, run cocked and locked with a light trigger, and can fire if dropped. Using one without familiarity and training is a good way to shoot yourself. Glocks run an unsupported chamber and can blow, particularly if using reloads. I recently saw one in .357 sig blow up in a shooters hand while using factory reloads. Both weapons will get you hurt, especially the 1911, if you misuse it and don't do your due diligence.

I don't think either of them are defective designs though...

Best,

Joe

Consider this: How many 1911's or Glocks are banned from top training courses? It's no secret that Glocks and reloads are potentially dangerous, as well as shooting lead through them. That has nothing to do with a faulty holster design and is nothing more than a red herring in the discussion. I don't subscribe to the "you think this is bad, check this out!" argument. It's totally irrelevant. This isn't a discussion about 1911's, Glocks, DC10's and their single bolt holding the engine to the wing, running with scissors, motor cycle helmet laws, etc. It's about a holster that's been proven to increase the likelihood of an accident.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

People are left with [STRIKE]two[/STRIKE] three options: 1) trust that less experienced people claim there isn't a design flaw and the holster doesn't exacerbate safety issues. or 2) Trust highly respected and experienced trainers, now including Larry Vickers, that have come out against the use of SERPA due to safety concerns related to the design of the holster. 3) Understand that firearms trainers have to operate similarly to special-ed teachers by putting helmets on their students & padding on anything sharper than 110°, then ignore this information because not everyone is special needs.

FTFY

 

[Fargo]

I didn't say that, you did.

Say what? My post you quoted was a question, not a statement.

For whatever reason, you can't see the fault in the design of the SERPA. Far more experienced people than yourself have recognized the fault in the SERPA design and have made their concerns public.

But then again, folks with plenty of experience like YOU have run them and tested them and been unable to duplicate... I don't say can't shoot yourself if you monkey the button, but monkeying the button is misusing the equipment....

People are left with two options: 1) trust that less experienced people claim there isn't a design flaw and the holster doesn't exacerbate safety issues. or 2) Trust highly respected and experienced trainers, now including Larry Vickers, that have come out against the use of SERPA due to safety concerns related to the design of the holster.

1. Contrary to what you assume, I didn't see any reference to safety in Larry Vicker's statement.
2. I would wager that it is a combination of misuse and lawyers that prompts the serpa being banned, not that it gets you shot if you use it right.

You can take the blame for all the ND/AD's you like. A faulty design doesn't take away from where one can place the blame. However, more experienced people than yourself have determined that the SERPA is unsafe.

I'll take the blame for any NDs/ADs that I have and no more...

Actually, the ALS and SLS holsters is very popular inside of military/LEO and other professional circles. Probably more so than SERPA's. They're all over the place. Just because you don't know this or see them in use doesn't negate their presence in the marketplace. They are considerably more expensive than the SERPA, as much as 3x's so. People tend to go for cheap vs. quality when they don't understand the differences between product lines completely.

See, there you go assuming again. You have no idea what I do and what circles I run in.

Consider this: How many 1911's or Glocks are banned from top training courses? It's no secret that Glocks and reloads are potentially dangerous, as well as shooting lead through them.

So after rationally considering my point, the best you can do is "other guys don't do it?"

That has nothing to do with a faulty holster design and is nothing more than a red herring in the discussion. I don't subscribe to the "you think this is bad, check this out!" argument. It's totally irrelevant. This isn't a discussion about 1911's, Glocks, DC10's and their single bolt holding the engine to the wing, running with scissors, motor cycle helmet laws, etc. It's about a holster that's been proven to increase the likelihood of an accident.

And here I thought it was about taking responsibility for being properly trained and familiarized with the equipment you use. I guess I was wrong...

Joe

 

[jeremy]

The thing I find interesting is the Number of Larry's Peer's in the SOCOM who use the Serpa, since they are so inherently dangerous and prone to failure...

 

[mospeada]

How is this fault in the Serpa any different than other designs that make you do something that could potentially cause a ND? Say for instance, firearms that require you to pull the trigger to disassemble them? I find those sorts of firearms dangerous and yet they are some of the most popular in the world and I've not heard of any training company banning them.

 

[Mike_Indy]

I've used a Serpa for my M&Ps when carrying an OWB for the past two years. I've not had any issue of any kind. This includes training classes, one of which involved an exercise where we acted as a BG trying to take the weapon from someone else. (Yes, unloaded and roped). Despite some significant yanking and pulling, no issues.
The release button is in a great location for me, I naturally put my index finger there to draw.

To each his own. I've found mine to be very reliable and durable.

 

[dom1104]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

"After the shot, my training took over..."

I... just found this video, on a unrelated youtube search, and what do you know.....a guy who shot himself using a Serpa.

 

[jeremy]

I took away from the Vid that HE was at fault for his technique, not the Holster...

 

[dom1104]

I took away from the Vid that HE was at fault for his technique, not the Holster...

I fully agree. Just ironic.

I also think its comedy gold "My training kicked in immediatly, I called my parents to let them know what happened..."

That... is comedy gold right there.