INGO member in handcuffs

[sj kahr k40]

Right, I think that everyday OC probably makes more of a difference than an OC get together, but if you had a huge one with 100 people, that would send a MUCH larger message to the Police than 1 guy or 5 guys OCing. I do think that individual OC has more of an effect of non-leo though.

I think it would be pretty awesome.

I think if we could get 5-10 groups of 4-5 people to walk around downtown OCing it would cover more ground and reach more people then a large group, I suggest we do it on a Sunday before a Colts game, lots of people downtown then

 

[SirRealism]

I should have clarified. I didn't expect ATF Consumer to be handcuffed and for us to be ordered to clear our guns in a public area.

 

[infidel]

I think if we could get 5-10 groups of 4-5 people to walk around downtown OCing it would cover more ground and reach more people then a large group, I suggest we do it on a Sunday before a Colts game, lots of people downtown then

Respectfully, I disagree....kind of...

It appears that there was no incident before the police arrived. People weren't running off in fear, nothing. It seems that the Police need to recognize the rights of OC'ers more than the general public. So, in my opinion, an appearance of 100 or so OC'ers would send a HUGE direct message to the police, especially local LEO.

Numerous smaller teams would possibly be better at "spreading the message" to the general public, but I do believe that if a strong message were to be sent, I would personally like it sent to the Police.

Before a Colt's game sounds good

 

[SavageEagle]

I think if we could get 5-10 groups of 4-5 people to walk around downtown OCing it would cover more ground and reach more people then a large group, I suggest we do it on a Sunday before a Colts game, lots of people downtown then

 

[sj kahr k40]

Either way would work, or a combo of both, central meeting point then 10 different ways to get to the next meeting point, stay moving and on the sidewalks, obey the signals

 

[Eddie]

I think if we could get 5-10 groups of 4-5 people to walk around downtown OCing it would cover more ground and reach more people then a large group, I suggest we do it on a Sunday before a Colts game, lots of people downtown then

Maybe designate one person to each group that would not OC. Their purpose would be to carry a video recorder of some type to make a record of any police intervention.

 

[SavageEagle]

I think if we could get 5-10 groups of 4-5 people to walk around downtown OCing it would cover more ground and reach more people then a large group, I suggest we do it on a Sunday before a Colts game, lots of people downtown then

Respectfully, I disagree....kind of...

It appears that there was no incident before the police arrived. People weren't running off in fear, nothing. It seems that the Police need to recognize the rights of OC'ers more than the general public. So, in my opinion, an appearance of 100 or so OC'ers would send a HUGE direct message to the police, especially local LEO.

Numerous smaller teams would possibly be better at "spreading the message" to the general public, but I do believe that if a strong message were to be sent, I would personally like it sent to the Police.

Before a Colt's game sounds good

Guys! We can have it both ways! Start in groups across the city and converge on downtown! Use the old noggin!

 

[SavageEagle]

Maybe designate one person to each group that would not OC. Their purpose would be to carry a video recorder of some type to make a record of any police intervention.

Or just to record every movement of the individual group so there's video record of EVERYthing and not just police interactions.

 

[infidel]

Guys! We can have it both ways! Start in groups across the city and converge on downtown! Use the old noggin!

I've been wondering why we keep you around.

 

[bigus_D]

I tried to read the entire thread... but honestly, I skimmed some.

Is a complaint going to be filed by those involved? THIS might be the start of some real education... unless a complaint is filed, it sort of seems like a waste of time.

 

[Indy317]

A deliberate untruth. A fantasy of anti-gunners, but devoid of reality. A thug's wet dream, spouted and supported only by those who hate our freedoms, our rights, and who hope to cow American citizens.

You know full well that multiple federal courts have said you are wrong. You are simply saying what you want the law to be, not what it actually is.

You are dense...and your comments are going to end up getting someone arrested, likely for fleeing police. The only federal courts that count are those where Indiana falls under their umbrella, and the US Supreme Court. I have asked you in the past to back your claims up. Your refusal to do so indicates you are just spouting off what you want to believe. God help someone who has money for a lawyer and decides to take your advice thinking they have this magically "federal courts" case that will get them off of anything they may be arrested for.

 

[SavageEagle]

I've been wondering why we keep you around.

Comic Relief?

 

[machete]

You are dense...and your comments are going to end up getting someone arrested, likely for fleeing police. The only federal courts that count are those where Indiana falls under their umbrella, and the US Supreme Court. I have asked you in the past to back your claims up. Your refusal to do so indicates you are just spouting off what you want to believe. God help someone who has money for a lawyer and decides to take your advice thinking they have this magically "federal courts" case that will get them off of anything they may be arrested for.

I think Joe's right and no need for namecalling.

You said "Since the law says no handguns on your person, then if an officer sees a person with a handgun, there is absolutely reasonable suspicion to stop that person and investigate a possible criminal violation."

That's totally wrong and Joe said so. The law also says you can't drive without a license but cops arent allowed to stop every car and check for a license. The law says you arent allowed to rob banks but cops arent allowed to barge into your house to see if you have stolen cash around.

Joe's right but you might also be right about what the cops will arrest for. As we saw in this case cops do whatever they want and the law is another matter entirely.

 

[Indy317]

Joe yes their have been multiple federal court rulings on this. But none of them have jurisdiction over IN and they all had to do with states where OC is legal without a license/permit. In IN you are required to have a LTCH to carry a handgun openly or concealed, otherwise it is against the law. While I do not agree with it, that is the current law. Until you can show a decision in a court with jurisdiction over IN or one that states that it is not a reason to stop someone OC in a state that requires a license to do so you are incorrect.

So no it is not a deliberate untruth. What you posted is a deliberate misinterpretation of the decisions.

Now you are going to get the wrath of Joe....hope you have your flame suit on. Thankfully folks like you are here to give the other side of the argument, so someone new to carrying won't end up getting arrested for something because they think they can just walk away. I have Joe on ignore, but I saw his statements in some quotes, and I can't stand by letting complete falsehoods go. So anyone reading this who isn't sure, just ask Joe if he will pay for your lawyer if you happen to take his advice and end up in some legal trouble.

Another thing I want to add, only one or two posts, in this entire thread, has really hit upon the issue: There is a law on the books that makes OCing a criminal act. Yes there are exceptions (license, certain class of people). That being said, all this anger is directed at LEOs, whose job it is to investigate possible violations of criminal law. The LEOs are doing just that. We have some here who say they can't, and they are wrong, for now. We have others here saying LEOs should investigate, but only do so in a certain way. Obviously the anger here should be directed not at LEOs, but at your elected representatives of the Indiana House, Senate, and Governor's Office. Those are the people who could change the law. It would be easier and less confusing to change the law that have to sit here and wait for who knows how long for various courts to rule on various matters.

 

[Indy317]

I think Joe's right and no need for namecalling.

You said "Since the law says no handguns on your person, then if an officer sees a person with a handgun, there is absolutely reasonable suspicion to stop that person and investigate a possible criminal violation."

That's totally wrong and Joe said so. The law also says you can't drive without a license but cops arent allowed to stop every car and check for a license. The law says you arent allowed to rob banks but cops arent allowed to barge into your house to see if you have stolen cash around.

Joe's right but you might also be right about what the cops will arrest for. As we saw in this case cops do whatever they want and the law is another matter entirely.

Then by all means, take Joe's advice. OC around the state of Indiana and when an officer tells you to stop, refuse and keep walking. If they try to physically detain you, resist. Then have Joe come and defend you in court with all his case law on the issue. I never said folks can be stopped for license checks. That issue was dealt with by the US Supreme Court, OCing hasn't to my knowledge. Like I said, feel free to take Joe's advice. I am sure he will write you a nice $10K gift check for your defense attorney retainer fee. Since he is so correct, obviously you will have a slam dunk six-figure settlement coming your way, with that you can gift Joe back his $10K. I'm done with this as it concerns what Joe is telling people. If folks like you want to take his advice, by all means, do so.

 

[mrjarrell]

I think Joe's right and no need for namecalling.

You said "Since the law says no handguns on your person, then if an officer sees a person with a handgun, there is absolutely reasonable suspicion to stop that person and investigate a possible criminal violation."

That's totally wrong and Joe said so. The law also says you can't drive without a license but cops arent allowed to stop every car and check for a license. The law says you arent allowed to rob banks but cops arent allowed to barge into your house to see if you have stolen cash around.

Joe's right but you might also be right about what the cops will arrest for. As we saw in this case cops do whatever they want and the law is another matter entirely.

Actually, Joe is mostly correct. As is Indy. As the law is currently written the police can ask for a LTCH, if you're seen carrying a firearm. The BUT here is that a recent Indiana Appeals court case ruled that after the LTCH was seen then that should be the end of things. Apparently, this has not trickled down to the thin blue line members on the streets. Not that a court ruling would stop many of them from this type of behaviour.

 

[machete]

That being said, all this anger is directed at LEOs, whose job it is to investigate possible violations of criminal law.

By your reasoning anyone could be stopped at any minute to see if they are a criminal. I saw you drinking a Coke in your car. Its illegal to drink while you drive and that can could have gin in it so I get to stop you and do a full battery of tests,,,I don't think so.

Every cop could be stopped and ordered to produce identification because impersonating a police officer is a crime and someone wearing a police uniform could be breaking that law.

OCing isnt a legal permission to get shaken down by every cop who passes by.

I just cant see how anyone could justify this case. This is so clearly wrong that its sad to see what this country has fallen to when someone actually justifies what happened to ATFConsumer for doing something completely legal.

 

[bigus_D]

.... As the law is currently written the police can ask for a LTCH, if you're seen carrying a firearm. The BUT here is that a recent Indiana Appeals court case ruled that after the LTCH was seen then that should be the end of things. Apparently, this has not trickled down to the thin blue line members on the streets.

Is a complaint going to be filed by those involved? THIS might be the start of some real education... unless a complaint is filed, it sort of seems like a waste of time.

 

[ATF Consumer]

I should have clarified. I didn't expect ATF Consumer to be handcuffed and for us to be ordered to clear our guns in a public area.

Right...and the thing that is really boiling my blood just below the skin is this...
If I were to resist the ILLEGAL detainment, what would have happened?
Would I have been charged with resisting ARREST? If so, how can that be if the detainment in itself was illegal?

As it currently stands we do not get to exercise all of our rights and LEO's get to abuse whatever they choose.

I am not going to let this violation of our rights go by the way side...I am prepared to push this issue until we get some resolve.
It was really frustrating to have Officer Highsmith violate my rights, right in front of at least 4 other LEOs that obviously didn't care about our constitutional rights in the least. They need to be punished for complacency and allowing a crime to be committed right in front of their faces.

 

[Roadie]

Please, like there isn't a couple of guys here who light their flame throwers anytime they perceive someone to be disagreeing with them.

Joe McCarthy would be labeled a commie by them.

I am hard core supporter of the second amendment and I friggin love to OC; however I'm not going to pretend that carrying a MP5 across from the City County Building isn't going to result in a interaction with Law Enforcement.

For those of you preparing to send me to rep hell I'll add that after reading about people having to, in the presence of armed LEOs, DRAW their loaded weapons to make them clear I cringed.

It's easily the most unsafe, asinine "order" I've ever read about on a gun board. Thank God one of the people there didn't have a AD or get shot by a LEO walking up to the scene.

THIS was my thought as well. Can you imagine what that would look like to a late comer to the scene? A LEO, late to the party, comes around the corner and sees a civilian drawing his weapon...