INGO member in handcuffs

[Timjoebillybob]

The ATF says different since it has a stock attached.

Federal regs for this do not matter. BATFEce says it is not a handgun but IC code does. In Indiana it is considered a handgun and requires a LTCH to carry.

A deliberate untruth. A fantasy of anti-gunners, but devoid of reality. A thug's wet dream, spouted and supported only by those who hate our freedoms, our rights, and who hope to cow American citizens.

You know full well that multiple federal courts have said you are wrong. You are simply saying what you want the law to be, not what it actually is.

Joe yes their have been multiple federal court rulings on this. But none of them have jurisdiction over IN and they all had to do with states where OC is legal without a license/permit. In IN you are required to have a LTCH to carry a handgun openly or concealed, otherwise it is against the law. While I do not agree with it, that is the current law. Until you can show a decision in a court with jurisdiction over IN or one that states that it is not a reason to stop someone OC in a state that requires a license to do so you are incorrect.

So no it is not a deliberate untruth. What you posted is a deliberate misinterpretation of the decisions.

 

[Eddie]

Agreed. However, you say that there is no precedent to when the investigation is stopped for determining if you are breaking the law by carrying a gun.

Is it over when the LTCH is presented? Is it over when the LTCH is verified? Is it over when you are cuffed and forced to disarm? Is it over when you are thrown in the police car? Is it over when you are illegally arrested? Is it over when you are tazed? Is it over when the officer is done verbally berating you for choosing to exercise your right?

When is it over?

Or should it never have begun unless there was suspicion of you violating a crime? Maybe we can get fully legal, license-less open carry to make this bull mierda stop.

This is probably what disturbs me the most. I have posted about this in other threads. There seems to be a disconnect with law enforcement being able to say "there is no crime being committed here". How often do we see investigations of OCers go well beyond the point of common sense and once it is determined that the OCer can legally carry they continue to get subjected to lectures, rounds stripped out of their mags etc.

Part of being a good cop is using common sense. Sure, you can check and make sure a guy is legal to carry. Maybe you could justify taking away the person's gun until you made sure they were legal. Maybe handcuffing is acceptable to protect yourself. Maybe those little pink slips are easy to counterfit so you can stretch it and take the gun away longer just to made double sure everything legal. Maybe you can get away with running the serial numbers on the gun while you are at it. WHY?

At what point does a little dose of common sense and humanity come into play? Is there something about a person OCing that invokes some inherent need for LEO's to punish them? Why handcuff a guy for asking a question? Yes we can point out all these cases and dissect them this way and that but in my opinion that is only a symptom of the disease. I think that the real question that needs asking is "Is this good police work?" Whether or not one agrees with people OCing, is hassling OCers a good use of police time and resources? Are any crimes being prevented by doing this?

Once it becomes obvious that an OCer knows their rights and has paid for the right sort of permit, investigating further just to cause them inconvenience is poor police work.

 

[SirRealism]

For those asking whether this event educated anyone, I'd say it most certainly has. I'm busy and lazy this morning, so I'm not going to go through all the pages in this thread and hit multi-quote, but I think quite a few examples can be culled from this thread.

Was it the same education for which the event was intended? Not really, but I see a lot of people learning... myself very much included.

I see:

• A good (and even civil) debate about the most basic of our rights. (Yeah, this could have happened without our lunch get-together... but the discussion is happening in this thread.)
• People who said they're kinda glad that they didn't attend because they might have said something they regretted. It's likely that those folks are right now giving more thought to the balance of rights, civility, and safety. Perhaps those people will change their mind in one direction or another based on the reality of our situation as law abiding gun owners.
• INGO LEOs sharing their perspective on an issue that hasn't happened too many times in Indiana, but could potentially happen to any CCer or OCer at some point. (I've heard one non-INGO LEO say in person that he'll stop, question, and detain anyone he sees carrying a gun... so our location next to the City-County Building and the presence of the MP5 were not the only factors.)
• We're learning who, according to Jack Ryan, has balls. (You know you wanted to know!)

I can't speak for anyone else I had lunch with, but I certainly wasn't there to push buttons and get a reaction from LE. That's not why I carry, nor is it why I met at the Market yesterday. I would have been very happy had we not interacted with a single LEO. You can call me naive if you wish, but I didn't expect the reaction we got.

I learned from the encounter, and I've learned from the resultant conversation here (and on another site).

 

[Demo]

OK- I am calling you naive.

 

[henktermaat]

OK- I am calling you naive.

Why?

Some of us OC all the time. I also did not expect the reaction that we got.

 

[SavageEagle]

OK- I am calling you naive.

I OC 90% of the time and have so for the past two years. I've had 3 run in's with LE about my LTCH that involved more than just a "Can I see your LTCH?". 3 times in two years.

This behavior is NOT expected, nor is it legal. They have NO right to take my pistol from me while they check my LTCH. None.

 

[Demo]

I OC quite often myself.

I also enjoy reading sites like INGO, opencarry.org, Sig Forum, etc. I even like watching gun and/or bikini related videos on YouTube.

Based upon all that I've read-watched I would have bet you or the naive gentleman that it would go down like it did or even worse.

The MP5 carry and the location made it a sure bet.

Why?

Some of us OC all the time. I also did not expect the reaction that we got.

 

[ATM]

... You can call me naive if you wish...

OK- I am calling you naive.

Demo's just messin' with him. He supports OC.

 

[Demo]

Darn it! I'm sure I was seconds away from being called names.

Demo's just messin' with him. He supports OC.

 

[henktermaat]

Darn it! I'm sure I was seconds away from being called names.

 

[sj kahr k40]

Darn it! I'm sure I was seconds away from being called names.

I muttered a few when reading your post, does that make you feel any better

 

[SavageEagle]

You pot stirring hooligans!

 

[infidel]

So what would go down if we got our **** together and REALLY organized something with over 100 people all OCing?

 

[sj kahr k40]

So what would go down if we got our **** together and REALLY organized something with over 100 people all OCing?

National Guard call out

Martial law declared

 

[Fargo]

The ATF says different since it has a stock attached.

ATF determinations don't matter for Indiana law purposes of what is a handgun. If you were talking about federal statutes, you would be correct. However, since the LTCH requirement is an Indiana statute, Indiana's definition applies.

Best,

Joe

 

[PatriotPride]

So what would go down if we got our **** together and REALLY organized something with over 100 people all OCing?

Overweight IMPD officers dropping dead from heart-attacks and strokes?

Not trying to detract from OC events. That being said, I've found more success in just OCing every day. I've had numerous conversations with interested persons on the legality and appeal of OC, and I feel that if more persons simply OC'd throughout the day, it would make a difference.

 

[SavageEagle]

So what would go down if we got our **** together and REALLY organized something with over 100 people all OCing?

One very happy SavageEagle pissing his pants because he's so freaking happy and never thought it could happen.

 

[infidel]

Overweight IMPD officers dropping dead from heart-attacks and strokes?

Not trying to detract from OC events. That being said, I've found more success in just OCing every day. I've had numerous conversations with interested persons on the legality and appeal of OC, and I feel that if more persons simply OC'd throughout the day, it would make a difference.

Right, I think that everyday OC probably makes more of a difference than an OC get together, but if you had a huge one with 100 people, that would send a MUCH larger message to the Police than 1 guy or 5 guys OCing. I do think that individual OC has more of an effect of non-leo though.

I think it would be pretty awesome.

 

[Demo]

Please, like there isn't a couple of guys here who light their flame throwers anytime they perceive someone to be disagreeing with them.

Joe McCarthy would be labeled a commie by them.

I am hard core supporter of the second amendment and I friggin love to OC; however I'm not going to pretend that carrying a MP5 across from the City County Building isn't going to result in a interaction with Law Enforcement.

For those of you preparing to send me to rep hell I'll add that after reading about people having to, in the presence of armed LEOs, DRAW their loaded weapons to make them clear I cringed.

It's easily the most unsafe, asinine "order" I've ever read about on a gun board. Thank God one of the people there didn't have a AD or get shot by a LEO walking up to the scene.

 

[machete]

So what would go down if we got our **** together and REALLY organized something with over 100 people all OCing?

It would get labeled a militia and thats not that bad.