INGO member in handcuffs

[shibumiseeker]

So true...and yet so many people can't wait to rush out in 5 hours + to validate the state's existence. Against my better judgment, I'm likely to join them

We humans are a silly lot.

I see a vast difference between the system of governance under which we live, and the State. The State is an entity which exists to further its own existance at any cost. Our system of governance was set up to try to control the influence of the State. That it may not have been effective enough I won't dispute, but that doesn't mean that giving up is ever an option. The State's existance relies on the fact that the majority of people want to be told what to do in some form or another.

 

[Sgt Rock]

Just curious, because I forgot to ask earlier, was this your first ever OC in public? If so, what a way to start!!!

Indeed it was. I'm not a cop-basher, and I fully expected to be asked for LTCH but I didn't expect to be detained and have one of us handcuffed "for the officer's protection". If he was so worried WHY would he have 5 guys draw their weapons and unload them (in public)? I think HE thought we were sassin' him when he questioned what he told us to do. What saddens me is that the SGT never said a word.

 

[Love the 1911]

So, what? Surrender our right to carry and possess long guns because some people are scared? You are young, perhaps you aren't aware of the decades spent kowtowing to those scared, "Americans," and all we got in return was the near total elimination of our right to keep and bear arms. That tide didn't turn until some people adopted a more upfront, confrontational stance and flat refused to submit to the will of those who wish to strip us of our freedom. And such hard headed confrontation continues, and will continue, to be a necessary part of our fight to reclaim our rights.

Why not inform IMPD of the plans to OC? At roll call, they can inform the officers, the public will see the officers not taking weapons and handcuffing, and then people really get educated, including the officers. I am a LEO and can understand how this situation ended up here. If the IMPD exec staff advises against this type of event, it becomes time to protest and stand up for our freedom. Until then, all it takes is 1 officer who feels threatened to make a lot of law abiding citizens appear as criminals. Just my opinion on this subject.


Sgt Plink, that is a good Sgt on the street. Hopefully, the chewing took place in private where that officer received an education. You never know what may have happened with the weapons without that Sergeant on the scene, they may have had a stay at IMPD property room.

 

[ProLibertate]

There's a member here that refers to OC'ers as social retards. Wonder if they are K40?


BTW, K40s posts on that site regarding armed citizens are worth looking up. He's a true enemy of free Americans, a disgrace to the badge, IMHO.

Nope. Not me, Joe.
We may not see eye to eye on the topic of open carry, but I have said more than once that I fully support the right. Hell, I have even stated that I support open carry events! I am a paid site supporter at INGO, and have spent my entire adult life serving under oaths to uphold the Constitution- on both a state and federal level.
I have remained silent on this thread up to this point, but I wanted to clear up any notions behind your backhanded accusations.
Based on the information presented in this thread, it is my opinion that the Metro officers involved were in the wrong. I believe Monkey and ATF's rights were violated, and I would urge them to file complaints through the proper channels.
The reason you don't often see me post in this type of thread, however, is because they have a tendency to take on a sort of angry lynch-squad mob personality; filled with knee jerk reactions and emotionally driven arguments- all based on a one sided view.
This site is a goldmine of information and experience from all walks of life. I learn something new everyday here. But "cries for blood" are not what I'm here for.
I agree with the others who have already stated that the event would probably not have had any negative light whatsoever if the MP5 wasn't involved. I know it's our right.
You have the right to strut through downtown walking a rabbit on a leash while wearing high heels and a sombrero too, but you will draw negative attention while exercising that right.

If you want to "educate the sheeple", that's great. I fully support you. But do you really honestly feel that walking through a crowded market at lunchtime with a long gun is the best way to change people's minds?

 

[Hammerhead]

When and how should we educate the sheeple? By walking down the street with our guns hidden and handing out pieces of pretty printed up dead trees, without context?

Yes, the people who do the OC events like this one are looking for people to notice them, just as with any other marketing campaign or publicity stunt put on by any number of other groups. Yet, we're criminals when we do so, or "trying to scare everyone" or any other number of bull comments?

Carry your guns proudly and show the people. If they ask, tell them the truth. If you're harassed, stand up for yourself, as it seems these gentlemen did.

-1000 for the dip officers who decided to trample the rights in the name of Officer Safety (I still want to know who this richard Officer Safety is and why we're disarmed because of him).

+1000 for the gentlemen who were there and acted professionally and properly. +1000 more if they follow up and file a complaint, with video evidence in hand, to show we're mad as hell and not going to take it any more.

 

[sj kahr k40]

Why not inform IMPD of the plans to OC? At roll call, they can inform the officers, the public will see the officers not taking weapons and handcuffing, and then people really get educated, including the officers. I am a LEO and can understand how this situation ended up here. If the IMPD exec staff advises against this type of event, it becomes time to protest and stand up for our freedom. Until then, all it takes is 1 officer who feels threatened to make a lot of law abiding citizens appear as criminals. Just my opinion on this subject.


Sgt Plink, that is a good Sgt on the street. Hopefully, the chewing took place in private where that officer received an education. You never know what may have happened with the weapons without that Sergeant on the scene, they may have had a stay at IMPD property room.

The problem with informing IMPD about these events is that they will assign officers to escort us everywhere we go, that takes them away from doing their jobs and the public will think it's only allowed because the cops are there

 

[Hammerhead]

That and the fact that as an adult and a law abiding citizen, I don't need a frackin baby sitter to walk down the street, nor do I need to ask "mother may I".

Yes, I know "informing" isn't "asking" but that's really what it boils down to. Telling them we're going to do something so they don't freak out is still just the same as getting permission, or looking for approval.

I can see the conversation now.

"Hi, chief, we're going to have a group of law abiding citizens in the city doing absolutely nothing wrong, and we'll be carrying our guns. We just thought you'd like to know"

"Sure thing, where will you be so we can send an "escort" to keep you law abiding citizens safe (chuckle)? This will keep us from having to look for you or wait for a scared sheeple MWG call to come find you and harass you."

 

[Love the 1911]

The problem with informing IMPD about these events is that they will assign officers to escort us everywhere we go, that takes them away from doing their jobs and the public will think it's only allowed because the cops are there

I can see the brass wanting that. However, using verbal judo and basic negotiating skills, invite the officers to join you...in plain clothes. If IMPD refuses this request, let them know that they will not be invited to participate in any further events. Also be ready to meet some of the brass' demands (no long guns, etc.).

We can take a lot of ideas from the black pastors located in Indy. This group of people have regular meetings with the Mayor and the brass from IMPD and, (sometimes unfortunately) are heard and listened to.

 

[sj kahr k40]

The problem with meeting with the Mayor and IMPD brass is that we have a very few gun owners that are willing to protest in this way, at the OC walk held in 08 we had only 35 people there, and the 2A walk held last year had similar numbers, we aren't a big enough group to get a meeting with the Mayor or IMPD brass

 

[dukeboy_318]

The problem with meeting with the Mayor and IMPD brass is that we have a very few gun owners that are willing to protest in this way, at the OC walk held in 08 we had only 35 people there, and the 2A walk held last year had similar numbers, we aren't a big enough group to get a meeting with the Mayor or IMPD brass

If I hadnt been in the hospital this past walk, id been there. When's the next one?

Please do not allow this to devolve into a board war between INGO and officer.com. Let them have their opinion over there and please leave it at that. Nothing good can come of flooding over there to start arguing.

Thanks!

No problem boss man, no sense in stooping to that level.



I just re-read the 40 plus pages on this and im surprised no one picked up on this. ATF, did the officer read you your miranda rights after placing you in cuffs? I just spent 2 hrs researching this thoroughly and according to several internet sources and to the text book I have from my law class a couple semesters ago, a police officer is required to read you those rights upon cuffing you because the supreme court has ruled that the rights must be read to someone who is detained and not free to leave on their own free will prior to any other questions being asked. If you were free to go, they did not have to read them but seeing how none of you all were allowed to leave freely and yet they continued to question you, it sounds like this officer and the others standing by violated federal law. I just sent an email to a family friend who is a local procescutor to see if this is true or if I am misinterpreting this. Ill post links and references as well upon verification but just food for thought at this point.
Sounds like you should take this to the top.

 

[SavageEagle]

I'm glad you guys came out of this without even more harassment. However, what happened to the organizers of the event? Did they not attend?

I can see the brass wanting that. However, using verbal judo and basic negotiating skills, invite the officers to join you...in plain clothes. If IMPD refuses this request, let them know that they will not be invited to participate in any further events. Also be ready to meet some of the brass' demands (no long guns, etc.).

We can take a lot of ideas from the black pastors located in Indy. This group of people have regular meetings with the Mayor and the brass from IMPD and, (sometimes unfortunately) are heard and listened to.

The problem with meeting with the Mayor and IMPD brass is that we have a very few gun owners that are willing to protest in this way, at the OC walk held in 08 we had only 35 people there, and the 2A walk held last year had similar numbers, we aren't a big enough group to get a meeting with the Mayor or IMPD brass

SJ speaks the truth. The very first walk I met with the Indianapolis Events Board which included the Parks Dept, Event Board staff, IMPD Brass, and many, MANY others. Another member went with me. They were very apprehensive to the idea, but allowed it because I specifically requested officers with us. It was the very first event of it's type and it was well received by everyone we met.

The second event they were there, but none too happy to do so. Unlike the first event where they were in squad cars, they used two bikes.

Members here have openly stated they will NOT come to another event if the IMPD are present. I asked them, pleaded with them to walk with us instead of riding motorcycles, and they refused. They won't walk with or among us.

That's why next time they may get a heads up that we'll be out and about on a certain day, but won't be given specifics. That way they'll be prepared for calls, but we won't have to worry about them showing up.

Also, next time, it won't just be one group. I want to see at least four. More would be better, but I don't want to see groups less than 5 or 6. That way we can cover more ground, get more people to see us, hand out more fliers, and make it harder for any type of ghosting by IMPD. The problem is going to be in having each group have a spokesman should the media decide to finally show up. Being in different groups, there's no telling which group they would show up to. It would be best (duh) if everyone in the group was comfortable talking with people, but I would like to see one person that's camera worthy.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Indeed it was. I'm not a cop-basher, and I fully expected to be asked for LTCH but I didn't expect to be detained and have one of us handcuffed "for the officer's protection". If he was so worried WHY would he have 5 guys draw their weapons and unload them (in public)? I think HE thought we were sassin' him when he questioned what he told us to do. What saddens me is that the SGT never said a word.

Making SURE you know who is boss is for his own protection.

First sign of thinking you make your own decisions for your self then the master has to run you through a few illogical and useless tasks just to remind you who does the telling and who does the doing. Same thing regardless of the situation, work, pet training, farm animals, subjects of the state. You've got to keep them used to doing what they are told so that when it comes to the once in a while when you really need them to walk up the board in to the trailor you can get them to do it with out a lot of fuss.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Well it was no problem out in the land of common sense for a free lawful citizen to exercise at least three of their constitutional enumerated rights as citizens of this country.

Right to vote, check.
Freedom of speach, check.
Right to freely associate, check.
Right to bare arms, check.

Every one appeared plenty friendly and glad to see every one else. No sour faces, whining, storm troopers, questions, lectures, or concern for any one's safety, what ever. Just voters, openly armed citizens, the usual voting poll people.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Well it was no problem out in the land of common sense for a free lawful citizen to exercise at least three of their constitutional enumerated rights as citizens of this country.

Right to vote, check.
Freedom of speach, check.
Right to freely associate, check.
Right to bare arms, check.

Every one appeared plenty friendly and glad to see every one else. No sour faces, whining, storm troopers, questions, lectures, or concern for any one's safety, what ever. Just voters, openly armed citizens, the usual voting poll people.

Maybe if I'd been carrying my .50bmg?

 

[Jack Ryan]

Maybe if I'd been carrying my .50bmg?

May be next time?

 

[ATF Consumer]

If I hadnt been in the hospital this past walk, id been there. When's the next one?



No problem boss man, no sense in stooping to that level.



I just re-read the 40 plus pages on this and im surprised no one picked up on this. ATF, did the officer read you your miranda rights after placing you in cuffs? I just spent 2 hrs researching this thoroughly and according to several internet sources and to the text book I have from my law class a couple semesters ago, a police officer is required to read you those rights upon cuffing you because the supreme court has ruled that the rights must be read to someone who is detained and not free to leave on their own free will prior to any other questions being asked. If you were free to go, they did not have to read them but seeing how none of you all were allowed to leave freely and yet they continued to question you, it sounds like this officer and the others standing by violated federal law. I just sent an email to a family friend who is a local procescutor to see if this is true or if I am misinterpreting this. Ill post links and references as well upon verification but just food for thought at this point.
Sounds like you should take this to the top.

Nothing was read to me...nothing, just told I was cuffed for not following a command and detained for officer's safety. I will eagerly be waiting the responce to your inquiry...that would be some powerfull stuff right there.

 

[ATF Consumer]

I want to thank everyone for the support you have stressed in this thread plus all of the rep that followed...

This should be sending a message to anyone that cares about our constitutional rights...no matter which one it is that is currently under attack.

 

[Eddie]

Nothing was read to me...nothing, just told I was cuffed for not following a command and detained for officer's safety. I will eagerly be waiting the responce to your inquiry...that would be some powerfull stuff right there.

The effect of not reading you your rights would be that any answers you gave in response to their questions would not be admissable as evidence against you since you were not free to leave. They are not required to read you your rights just because you are in cuffs, they are required to read you your rights when you are not free to leave and you are being questioned.

 

[Eddie]

Well it was no problem out in the land of common sense for a free lawful citizen to exercise at least three of their constitutional enumerated rights as citizens of this country.

Right to vote, check.
Freedom of speach, check.
Right to freely associate, check.
Right to bare arms, check.

Every one appeared plenty friendly and glad to see every one else. No sour faces, whining, storm troopers, questions, lectures, or concern for any one's safety, what ever. Just voters, openly armed citizens, the usual voting poll people.

I carried to the polls but at 36 degrees it was just too cold to really oc. I had a jacket on with my sig on my hip.

 

[indyjoe]

I don't have any need to or plan to. I'm just noticing a lot of bravado after the fact when in fact it appears only ONE guy actually stepped up and put his balls on the line and only one other guy at least put ONE ball on the line. A lot of other guys seem to have really wished they didn't miss out on the opportunity to participate.

This is one way they can if they really want to. I'd be a lot more impressed with their committment if it were for the benefit of people who are not already convicted felons. It's a lot more important to me that free citizens be capable of defending themselves in the event of election intimidation than that convicted felons be armed at the time they become repeat offenders.

The school I voted in had students in class. Carry to a school is a very quick way to BECOME a convicted felon. There is a difference carrying where it is legal and being illegally harassed, rather than committing a felony. Getting arrested by doing so will not help things.