Indiana State Multigun Championship - CANCELLED

[singlestacksig]

I think the correct conclusion or conclusion about this situation and this club can be drawn...

What was the motivation for a rule change????

I don't know the motivations, but apparently a rule change was proposed & passed that prohibited rifle rounds from being fired into any berm but the backstops..
The match personal did not like that so they canceled the match..
I don't know the wording of the exact rule change, or if it is in effect now or not.. I was not at those meetings.. but I was told that the rule change did not get "corrected" until after the cancellation word went out..

there could be real safety concerns with side shots from rifle fire..

 

[slow1911s]

What about their pitch was ineffective?

All of it, from what I gathered.

The post you made sounded like they were not reasonable or appropriate in their pitch.

That's what I understand.

Did you hear the pitch?

How was the pitch ineffective?

Appleseed didn't get to host an event at Wildcat. Why was it ineffective? I don't know. My guess is they may not have considered how Wildcat is operated.

Perhaps the host was not receptive?

clearly

 

[chizzle]

Wildcat as a club did not cancel the multi gun match, the persons charged with administering the match decided to cancel it because they did not like a rules change.. the match could have been held under the rule change, and they could have just asked that they could have asked that the rules be changed back at the next meeting, which did happen..
The match people choose to cancel the match..


When Appleseed approached Wildcat they presented something that had more to do with politics than shooting sports, it did not sit well with enough members to get a positive vote.

As someone who has been a match director, I would think it would be very difficult to hold a match under rules that change month-to-month. With the complexity of a multigun match, I can see how the match directors felt the need to cancel the match after Wildcat's temporary rule change. If you had 100+ shooters travelling in from all over the country and Wildcat made another "temporary rule change" that greatly limited the multigun match, I could see how the match directors could end up with a bunch of really ticked off competitors and could be left scrambling to redesign stages that took months to prepare.

 

[Coach]

Summation:

Wildcat rejected Appleseed and in a somewhat brash manner and on here it has been placed at the feet of Appleseed because they failed to consider how Wildcat was run. Appleseed functions professionally, safely and with acclaim by critics all over the state of Indiana. I have seen their presentation in person to club boards more than once. They must have really changed it up for Wildcat.

A multi gun match was cancelled by the match organizers who had spent many hours getting the thing off the ground. They cancelled because the host club changed rules that did not allow rifle shots into the side berms because of safety. When the criticism begins loyal Wildcat folks want to say the match organizers quit instead of pushing the rules to be changed back. What would prevent the rules from being re-changed before the match. Maybe they just don't like being yanked around.

I was on two different ranges in two different parts of the state this weekend. I was asked quite a few times. What is up with Wildcat? Now after reading this thread I have the answer to tell people who ask.

Nothing is wrong with wildcat it is everyone else.

 

[BillD]

I have been a member of Wildcat since 99 and this does not surprise me. There are groups such as highpower and trap shooters who wouldn't care at all if no other groups were allowed on the range.
They don't care about growing the shooting sports or showing off their range. To get a major match scheduled, which I have done twice, you need to pack the meetings with people who want it too. This is tough because the trap shooters make sure they schedule shoots before the monthly meeting so they can all vote in a block.

I held a bunch of rifle included club matches where we shot into the sideberms. No one said anything about it. And there were club officers shooting the match.

It's a damn shame. Wildcat is really looking bad to the rest of the state.
They have a great facility but the politics of the different groups and the individual members who think it's "their" range because they pay dues drive out people who want to compete on the state level. IMO, they think the action sports are too dangerous. They like to stand or lay in one spot to do their shooting. And anyone who doesn't is looked on with derision and suspicion.

The "Old Boy" network is strong at Wildcat. And when I lived closer, I shot there 1-3 times per week. When I went to meetings, I saw a bunch of people I'd never seen on the range. There is a large group who look at it as their personal club and nonmembers are not welcome on their range.

As I said before, it's a damn shame.

And the only way to change it is to get new officers elected to the club, again by packing the meetings with supporters. Bob Garvin has done an excellent job, IMO, but there are many other members who don't share Bob's views. And it's tough to get to that many people there at 7:30 on a Tuesday evening. Working guys have a tough time making it.

I'll continue my membership because sometimes I go there to practice on the plate range or when I'm visiting my daughter and grandkids.

Except for Brett and Tony, there aren't many there who have the passion for the sports to put on matches. USPSA matches are usually low round count 4 stage matches which have a disconcerting pattern of getting canceled and they don't work with other clubs in the state for scheduling so they end up with a low shooter turnout.

Have I mentioned it's a damn shame?

 

[jakemartens]

That's a damn shame

 

[BillD]

As a member of the putative host range, I hope you can do this again some time in the future.

On the selfish side it is REALLY nice to able to use the club that I pay for!

Best wishes to your program.

The shooters in a major match pay for it too. More than our yearly dues for a one time use.

 

[tnek]

I feel like if the rule about shooting into the berm is going to be enforced it needs to be enforced accross the board. That includes IDPA, USPSA, Cowboy and we need to look at any other sport such as Action Pistol and Sillouette as well. I would like to see the issue forced and resolved so we can finaly get all of the "cockroaches" out of the dark. Make them man up, and stand up or shut up and let other sports be.

The only way to make it an issue is to include all of the sports so they all feel the pain as well so we can once and for all put an end to the shotgun guys who want to make it a trap and skeet club.

 

[IndianaSlim]

But I thought the rule was only "rifle" shots into the side berm. Which sounds a lot to me like it's aimed at multi gun. It doesn't effect any other discipline that I can think of anyway.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The shooters in a major match pay for it too. More than our yearly dues for a one time use.

Are they members? Don't know, just askin'.

I think part of the problem is that the 3 gun people grab the whole range and members cannot shoot. I fell victim to this. Last year I was shooting when the 3 gun people announced that they needed all the ranges. When I said "fine, where can I shoot?", they scurried away and told me to come back another day. As a dues paying member, I was kicked off my own range while non-members got to use what I pay for! Just for the record, I harbored no ill will. They were just excited to be shooting their match and did not realize that they were ticking off a member (even though I clip my pass to my hat).

I have no qualms with matches that are on the calendar but the club has to limit the amount of ranges that competitions can scarf up. All competitors have got to learn to give some or it will lose everything.

We just need to sing kumbayah or something.

 

[Mog]

What detail do you want? Appleseed approached WCRPC. It wasn't accepted by the board and the club's membership. Whatever the approach was, it didn't work.
QUOTE]

It wasn't "the membership"-- most of us never had the chance to even comment. One or two persons got their shorts in a bunch over "how they were approached" and arbitrarily killed a great opportunity for the rest of us. "Their approach didn't work" is a pretty lame attempt to excuse their behavior by pinning the failure on Appleseed. It rings hollow. I have worked with the Appleseed folks for a couple of years now. They have consistently been professional, skilled and dedicated. They have a program that has consistently won acclaim all over Indiana. And now we have a State Championship lost to the same short sighted self interest. It's a damn shame. Wildcat is a terrific facitily, and they have a lot of good people there.

 

[chizzle]

I think part of the problem is that the 3 gun people grab the whole range and members cannot shoot.

Is that accurate? Based on their most recent score sheets, it appears that Multigun typically has 5-7 stages, which would be similar to USPSA, Steel, Icore, and Action Cowboy. If that were the case, doesn't that leave open 3-5 shooting positions?

Granted, a state match would require more stages than a typical monthly match.

 

[slow1911s]

It wasn't "the membership"-- most of us never had the chance to even comment. One or two persons got their shorts in a bunch over "how they were approached" and arbitrarily killed a great opportunity for the rest of us.

Were you at the meeting when the decision was explained? I was. I'm paraphrasing, but what was explained is that Appleseed wanted to take control range for a number of days (2?). The board decided that was not in the club's best interest. I don't know if their insurance prohibits such things. I don't know if it was on the advice of counsel? A combination? Not related? What I do know is that the board, who is elected by the members decided it was not for the club.

Could have Appleseed found a way to make it work? I like to think so. I think that everything is negotiable. Does it mean Appleseed is a bad program? No. Appleseed's needs and the club's didn't mesh. There seem to be plenty o opportunities across the state that make it convenient for everyone.

To the rule change. My experience with the club and what it allows, generally, is that is not very risk-tolerant. That is not a bad thing. I only have secondhand info on what went into it, but the changes after the decision to host the match (approved first by the board, then by a group of over 50 members, including me. And, I recall only one vote against.) is inexcuseable.

 

[Coach]

I have seen a 2 day Appleseed class run at ACC. I taught a class in the bays next to it, and on the second day a USPSA match was run around the Appleseed class. I have seen it work.

 

[Mog]

I wasn't there-- my work schedule usually prohibits my attendance at meetings. I heard about it from folks that were there. Appleseed only needs one 25 yard range for their program-- usually two days.
It works very well everywhere else.

Were you at the meeting when the decision was explained? I was. I'm paraphrasing, but what was explained is that Appleseed wanted to take control range for a number of days (2?). The board decided that was not in the club's best interest. I don't know if their insurance prohibits such things. I don't know if it was on the advice of counsel? A combination? Not related? What I do know is that the board, who is elected by the members decided it was not for the club.

Could have Appleseed found a way to make it work? I like to think so. I think that everything is negotiable. Does it mean Appleseed is a bad program? No. Appleseed's needs and the club's didn't mesh. There seem to be plenty o opportunities across the state that make it convenient for everyone.

QUOTE]

 

[chizzle]

the changes after the decision to host the match is inexcuseable.

I agree with you. I was stunned that they would change the basic range rules right before a big match in such a way that would practically prohibit the match from happening. I know that they don't see it that way, but the Match Directors that designed all the stages sure did, and it made you wonder, "if they'll pass a rule like this, what will they pass next?" Overall, it seemed very punitive, and directed squarely at Multigun.

I think the reason that the Multigun situation and the Appleseed situation come up on the same thread is that both are focused on growing new segments of the shooting sports and could potentially bring in new shooters. We experienced similar pushback at my range when we introduced new shooting sports, as some people felt we were a "trap range" or a "muzzleloader range", etc. and didn't want to see other programs grow. Since that time we instituted a non-member fee (typically an additonal $5) for our match fees, which encouraged a lot of new people to join the club, and helped our club members feel that non-members were contributing to the club when participating in matches.

We've gotten several hundred new members since that time that want to see the club grow and continue to improve. Now we're a shooting range that wants to see all the shooting sports grow and expand, and our membership numbers show that. Hopefully the constructive criticism that Wildcat receives from effectively cancelling the Multigun State Match will put them back on a path towards encouraging new programs at their facility. After all, if our shooting community can't pull together and try to grow the shooting sports, how can we expect to defend against bad gun laws and ideas in the future?

 

[Mog]

Chizzle, great summary. I'll be interested to hear what others have to say. But I think you've pretty much nailed it!

I agree with you. I was stunned that they would change the basic range rules right before a big match in such a way that would practically prohibit the match from happening. I know that they don't see it that way, but the Match Directors that designed all the stages sure did, and it made you wonder, "if they'll pass a rule like this, what will they pass next?" Overall, it seemed very punitive, and directed squarely at Multigun.

I think the reason that the Multigun situation and the Appleseed situation come up on the same thread is that both are focused on growing new segments of the shooting sports and could potentially bring in new shooters. We experienced similar pushback at my range when we introduced new shooting sports, as some people felt we were a "trap range" or a "muzzleloader range", etc. and didn't want to see other programs grow. Since that time we instituted a non-member fee (typically an additonal $5) for our match fees, which encouraged a lot of new people to join the club, and helped our club members feel that non-members were contributing to the club when participating in matches.

We've gotten several hundred new members since that time that want to see the club grow and continue to improve. Now we're a shooting range that wants to see all the shooting sports grow and expand, and our membership numbers show that. Hopefully the constructive criticism that Wildcat receives from effectively cancelling the Multigun State Match will put them back on a path towards encouraging new programs at their facility. After all, if our shooting community can't pull together and try to grow the shooting sports, how can we expect to defend against bad gun laws and ideas in the future?

 

[tnek]

Are they members? Don't know, just askin'.

I think part of the problem is that the 3 gun people grab the whole range and members cannot shoot. I fell victim to this. Last year I was shooting when the 3 gun people announced that they needed all the ranges. When I said "fine, where can I shoot?", they scurried away and told me to come back another day. As a dues paying member, I was kicked off my own range while non-members got to use what I pay for! Just for the record, I harbored no ill will. They were just excited to be shooting their match and did not realize that they were ticking off a member (even though I clip my pass to my hat).

I have no qualms with matches that are on the calendar but the club has to limit the amount of ranges that competitions can scarf up. All competitors have got to learn to give some or it will lose everything.

We just need to sing kumbayah or something.

Is that accurate? Based on their most recent score sheets, it appears that Multigun typically has 5-7 stages, which would be similar to USPSA, Steel, Icore, and Action Cowboy. If that were the case, doesn't that leave open 3-5 shooting positions?

Granted, a state match would require more stages than a typical monthly match.

Actually Kirk I think this is not true. I know from personal experience how it can be frustrating when you want to use the range and its not possible due to a match.
In the PAST, not now, the Cowboys took EVERY bay even if they only shot two steel poppers on it with a shotgun. I know from experience.
As far as I know and have participated in, with all matches over the years including IDPA, USPSA and as of the last few years Multigun there is ALWAYS one bay open and except for Multigun the 300 yard line is open as well.
I think I remember the match you were at and unless it was not you someone had to be asked politely to move from bay 8 over to the silhouette bay. That bay still has a 100 yard length and a bench as well as the ability to set up targets as long as you dont shoot the steel with high power stuff.

I think Tony D and previous MDs have insured there is at least one bay for general use. If this is not the case Im sure the MD would like to know so it will not happen again.

The only reason for a complete shutdown of the range is a LARGE match such as the past State or Regional IDPA or the previously scheduled Multigun event.

 

[TwinSix]

Wildcat OFF my list

as a shooter that is breaking in to the "discipline", this sort of behavior is concerning. This "Elitists" mentality that we have towards others is embarrassing. It happens all over at "Golf Clubs", and other "elite" shooting / Gentlemens Clubs (not those kinds, guys!). I was considering joining an organization to broaden my knowledge and learn some skills in the shooting sports... Now, I can eliminate W.C. from the list.

Where to try next? Proximity to Indy South Side.

 

[chizzle]

as a shooter that is breaking in to the "discipline", this sort of behavior is concerning. This "Elitists" mentality that we have towards others is embarrassing. It happens all over at "Golf Clubs", and other "elite" shooting / Gentlemens Clubs (not those kinds, guys!). I was considering joining an organization to broaden my knowledge and learn some skills in the shooting sports... Now, I can eliminate W.C. from the list.

Where to try next? Proximity to Indy South Side.

I understand your frustration, only I hope that people channel that frustration into motivation to join the club. In order to change the attitude of a club, they need people to join and make changes from the inside. Just avoiding membership at an otherwise good club is going to continue to allow them to follow the status quo.