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Indiana Hunting Rifle Cartridge Change
- Thread starter HOLY LAND
- Start date
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The table in the dang petition is WRONG. Correction in large font.
*308 is 2.015" or 0.215" above current max
*7.62x54r is 2.115" or 0.315" above current max
*.30-06 is 2.494" or 0.694" above current max
*308 is 2.015" or 0.215" above current max
*7.62x54r is 2.115" or 0.315" above current max
*.30-06 is 2.494" or 0.694" above current max
I work with critical dimensions every day and it is rare to see any decimal measurements with a 0 in front of them.
At least it is accurate...they were 2's.
Me too. It is, after all, insignificant.
I moved last May to Indiana from SW Georgia where deer have reached the predator stage and hunters have reached the dangerous stage. Fortunately anyone born after Jan. 1st, 1961 must take a hunter safety course to obtain their first hunting license. Posted below are firearms regulations for harvesting all game animals. Any non-game animal can be taken with any caliber and type of firearm. As a side note, maximum number of deer one can harvest in one season--archery, primitive weapon, rifle, and shotgun is 10 with at least one deer having a minimum antler length on at least one side of 4".
LEGAL FIREARMS, PRIMITIVE WEAPONS & ARCHERY EQUIPMENT
Convicted Felonsmay not possess any firearm (including primitive weapons) while hunting unless that individual’s right to carry has been restored (OCGA § 16-11-131). This does not apply to archery equipment.
Primitive Weapons
Legal weapons during primitive weapons season include crossbows, bow and arrow, and any muzzleloading firearm. Scopes are legal.
Archery Equipment
Crossbows, longbows, recurve bows, and compound bows are allowed for hunting any game or feral hog. Arrows for hunting deer, bear or feral hog must be broadhead type.
Loaded Weapon
A firearm is considered loaded if a shell is in the chamber or magazine; a percussion cap is on the nipple; or powder is present on the frizzen pan. A crossbow is considered loaded if it is cocked.
Deer & Bear Firearms
Shotguns with No. 2 or smaller shot and any muzzleloading firearm.
Feral Hog Firearms
Any deer, bear, turkey or small game firearms. There is no restriction on magazine capacity for rifles. Additional weapons restrictions apply on WMAs and Federal lands.
Small Game & Furbearer Firearms
Most hunting accident/deaths are on WMA lands, but quota hunts have reduced the number of incidents of the years.
I posted this information to give a different perspective of hunting and game laws that work. I am now 69 y.o. and have hunted all game since I was 6 y.o. Most of the people I have hunted with were responsible adults and same age friends (as I reached my teens) who were taught gun safety and taking game was for food, not just a sporting activity.
I believe the electronic media has a lot of influence on the lack of responsibility new hunters have today. One particular ad I loathe goes something like "you won't hunt deer anymore, you ambush them." What kind of message is that putting out to anyone not trained in the realities of safe hunting? JMHO.
LEGAL FIREARMS, PRIMITIVE WEAPONS & ARCHERY EQUIPMENT
Convicted Felonsmay not possess any firearm (including primitive weapons) while hunting unless that individual’s right to carry has been restored (OCGA § 16-11-131). This does not apply to archery equipment.
Primitive Weapons
Legal weapons during primitive weapons season include crossbows, bow and arrow, and any muzzleloading firearm. Scopes are legal.
Archery Equipment
Crossbows, longbows, recurve bows, and compound bows are allowed for hunting any game or feral hog. Arrows for hunting deer, bear or feral hog must be broadhead type.
Loaded Weapon
A firearm is considered loaded if a shell is in the chamber or magazine; a percussion cap is on the nipple; or powder is present on the frizzen pan. A crossbow is considered loaded if it is cocked.
Deer & Bear Firearms
- Modern Rifles and Handguns: Centerfire Only, .22-cal. or larger with expanding bullets. There is no restriction on magazine capacity for rifles.
- Shotguns: 20-gauge or larger loaded with slugs or buckshot. Buckshot is not allowed on WMAs, unless otherwise specified.
- Muzzleloaders: .44-cal. or larger, or muzzleloading shotguns 20 gauge or larger. Scopes are legal.
Shotguns with No. 2 or smaller shot and any muzzleloading firearm.
Feral Hog Firearms
Any deer, bear, turkey or small game firearms. There is no restriction on magazine capacity for rifles. Additional weapons restrictions apply on WMAs and Federal lands.
Small Game & Furbearer Firearms
- Rifles and Handguns: Any .22-cal. or smaller rimfire, air rifle, or any muzzleloading firearm. For fox & bobcat, centerfire firearms of .17 caliber and larger may be used. There is no restriction on magazine capacity for rifles.
- Shotguns: Any having shot shell size 3.5 inches or smaller in length with No. 2 or smaller shot.
- Shotguns (Waterfowl): Any 10-gauge or smaller loaded with federally approved nontoxic shot of size “F” or smaller. Lead shot may not be in possession while hunting waterfowl.
- Plugged Shotguns: Shotguns must be plugged to a maximum capacity of 3 shells (magazine and chamber combined) except for deer, bear and feral hog shotguns, which are limited to maximum capacity of 5 shells. Plugs must be one piece and incapable of being removed through the loading end of the magazine.
- Suppressors: Suppressors may not be used for hunting.
Most hunting accident/deaths are on WMA lands, but quota hunts have reduced the number of incidents of the years.
I posted this information to give a different perspective of hunting and game laws that work. I am now 69 y.o. and have hunted all game since I was 6 y.o. Most of the people I have hunted with were responsible adults and same age friends (as I reached my teens) who were taught gun safety and taking game was for food, not just a sporting activity.
I believe the electronic media has a lot of influence on the lack of responsibility new hunters have today. One particular ad I loathe goes something like "you won't hunt deer anymore, you ambush them." What kind of message is that putting out to anyone not trained in the realities of safe hunting? JMHO.
Gotcha.
IMNSHO
Ambushing would probably be sitting on stand.
Lots of folks work drives during gun season..........definitely not an ambushing thing.
Of course, too many think deer hunting is stomping through the woods so they might catch a glimpse of tails bouncing off in the distance.
Ambushing would probably be sitting on stand.
Lots of folks work drives during gun season..........definitely not an ambushing thing.
Of course, too many think deer hunting is stomping through the woods so they might catch a glimpse of tails bouncing off in the distance.
I just read this entire thread and your petition. Current Indiana regulations mandate a cartridge that will adequately and humanly kill a deer at reasonable ranges. In Indiana we are lucky to be able to use rifles, not too many years go that was not the case.
Your list of cartridges leaves much to be desired. Three of the cartridges are primarily found in AR rifles and one is a Russian military round that is usually loaded with FMJ bullets , hardly good for Deer hunting and the 7 MM mag is a bit of overkill, IMO.
The petition does not make a very compelling argument, sounds more like you are whining about people that are using wildcat cartridges that follow the rules set out by the DNR. I feel you would have done better to request a review of the current regulation. Including a list of proven commercially loaded available professionally recommended Deer Hunting cartridges including the proper bullet selection to insure expansion. And include the bibliography, you know the source(s) of your list - who the expert(s) are.
Or pick a cartridge that is legal - commercial or wildcat, buy a gun in the chosen caliber, practice a lot, and go hunt. If you must shoot grandpa’s 06 go to the range
Your list of cartridges leaves much to be desired. Three of the cartridges are primarily found in AR rifles and one is a Russian military round that is usually loaded with FMJ bullets , hardly good for Deer hunting and the 7 MM mag is a bit of overkill, IMO.
The petition does not make a very compelling argument, sounds more like you are whining about people that are using wildcat cartridges that follow the rules set out by the DNR. I feel you would have done better to request a review of the current regulation. Including a list of proven commercially loaded available professionally recommended Deer Hunting cartridges including the proper bullet selection to insure expansion. And include the bibliography, you know the source(s) of your list - who the expert(s) are.
Or pick a cartridge that is legal - commercial or wildcat, buy a gun in the chosen caliber, practice a lot, and go hunt. If you must shoot grandpa’s 06 go to the range
There are more than just FMJ Bullets for hunting for the Mosin Nagant in 7.62x54r. I am not knocking anyone who wants to use Wildcat rifles or bullets. What I am trying to say is that we should be allowed to use more rifles in Indiana of different calibers. Why do people who want to hunt with our Grandfather's guns have to be told to shut up and just go to a range if we want to use our rifles? Everyone has a right to use what ever rifle they want to use for hunt as long as they are safe and abide by the law that exist we should not limit each other and we should let the DNR know we as hunters are standing together in order to allow ourselves to have more freedom with our Second Amendment Rights for hunting. If you dont want to use other calibers then that is your choice but dont try to limit people because you feel like we as you say, "sounds more like you are whining about people that are using wildcat cartridges that follow the rules set out by the DNR". I am just wanting to expand hunting laws in Indiana lawfully to allow hunters to enjoy the season to the fullest. I am not going to put down how you want to hunt so dont put down how we want to hunt lawfully.
Anyone who would like to support expanding Indiana Hunting Laws please Sign your Name and Email and dont forget to add your comments as well your voice has power. Thank you
These are all choices we have to use for the Mosin Nagant.
Reloading offerings examples,
Barnes TSX BULLET 303 / 7.65 mm .311 Diameter 150gr.
Hornady 7.62 Cal .310 123gr SP
Hornady 7.62 Cal .310 123gr SST
Hornady 7.62 Cal .310 123gr Z-MAX
Hornady 303 Cal .312 150gr Interlock SP
Hornady 303 Cal .312 174gr Interlock RN
Ammunition as an example,
7.62x54R Prvi Partizan 150gr. SP Ammo
7.62x54R Sellier & Bellot 180gr. Soft Point Ammo
7.62 x 54R Hornady Match 174gr. BTHP Vintage
Brown Bear 7.62x54r Soft Point 203 Grain
Anyone who would like to support expanding Indiana Hunting Laws please Sign your Name and Email and dont forget to add your comments as well your voice has power. Thank you
These are all choices we have to use for the Mosin Nagant.
Reloading offerings examples,
Barnes TSX BULLET 303 / 7.65 mm .311 Diameter 150gr.
Hornady 7.62 Cal .310 123gr SP
Hornady 7.62 Cal .310 123gr SST
Hornady 7.62 Cal .310 123gr Z-MAX
Hornady 303 Cal .312 150gr Interlock SP
Hornady 303 Cal .312 174gr Interlock RN
Ammunition as an example,
7.62x54R Prvi Partizan 150gr. SP Ammo
7.62x54R Sellier & Bellot 180gr. Soft Point Ammo
7.62 x 54R Hornady Match 174gr. BTHP Vintage
Brown Bear 7.62x54r Soft Point 203 Grain
I would simplify the petition to make it easier on everyone. I would not ask for specific calibers, but write it in their own words to cover your question. An example would be to find the largest common caliber people would hunt with and use those dimensions. The longest case or overall length, and smallest diameter bullet that would be acceptable. Simply dropping the requirement to 30 caliber would include a multitude of more common rounds. I would write it to show simply why you want the caliber change and how it will improve hunting for everyone.
I am not a hunter, but come from a family of hunters. I have heard many of the arguments for and against modern calibers. I would urge you to pay careful attention to your language as it determines how you are perceived. An example would be to not call the calibers "high powered". That is a relative term. A 357 magnum is a high powered cartridge compared to a .22 caliber. I would write it to emphasise that modern cartridges are established nationwide and the rifles that are chambered in these calibers are much more popular in every state. Many hunters own the more common calibers, and cannot hunt with grandpa's old 3030 rifle because of this old law. People who move into Indiana have the more common calibers and would be able to hunt with guns they already own. It is cost prohibitive to have to build a gun with a wildcat cartridge that fits inside Indiana's narrow regulations. My dad has hunted with a shotgun his whole life, and the recoil is getting painful in his older age. I would love to loan him my rifle that has much less recoil, but I am not able to afford to buy him a new one that happens to fit inside Indiana's narrow caliber rules.
As far as the arguments against using modern cartridges, any bullet is lethal. If a hunter is shooting without being certain they have an effective backstop then they are willing to risk someone's life for a deer. You can't legislate his ethics. Hunter education should cover these safety issues, if a hunter chooses to ignore them the best you can do is prosecute them if they are caught. I personally would be fine with charging a hunter for Endangerment for shooting without a backstop. If they are shooting from a stand, the ground is a backstop. If they are shooting uphill where the bullet can keep on traveling, it would be murder if it hits someone. As far as how far a bullet travels before killing someone, it's irrelevant if it kills someone.
If you are arguing for modern calibers you should include a list of why it is a good thing.
My argument for legalizing modern calibers would be
More accurate so you will have a cleaner kill. The animal will suffer less, and you will have less deer run off wounded only to have the hunter not retrieve it, and shoot another.
More people own the more common calibers, so you may have more people take up interest in hunting, selling more licenses and increasing Indiana's revenue.
Many from out of state may hunt here since the rifle's they already own can be used also increasing Indiana's revenue by selling the higher priced out of state licenses.
Most modern rifle calibers have a lower recoil than a shotgun, allowing older hunters to hunt longer. It may also reduce injuries of people falling out of stands due to the heavier recoil knocking them off balance in a tree stand.
Be careful what counter arguments you use. If you claim rifle calibers in pistols are not different than a rifle, they may pass regulations prohibiting use of pistols with rifle calibers.
I do know people who hunt who intentionally take this risk. I was floored when a coworker of mine once claimed he didn't want rifle calibers approved because a shot might go over a hill and kill someone. I told him a true hunter would be certain of his backstop, his reply was if he had to wait for a good backstop he would never have a chance to shoot at a deer. I have heard of people shooting into brush and taking a gamble, etc. These people are out there, but you can't regulate everyone for actions a few might make. If we did this, no one would be allowed to even own a gun.
Good luck with your petition. It would be a good thing. If I ever take up hunting, I will build a 458 socom in an AR 15 platform under the current rules. Expensive as it is, I prefer a modern rifle.
I am not a hunter, but come from a family of hunters. I have heard many of the arguments for and against modern calibers. I would urge you to pay careful attention to your language as it determines how you are perceived. An example would be to not call the calibers "high powered". That is a relative term. A 357 magnum is a high powered cartridge compared to a .22 caliber. I would write it to emphasise that modern cartridges are established nationwide and the rifles that are chambered in these calibers are much more popular in every state. Many hunters own the more common calibers, and cannot hunt with grandpa's old 3030 rifle because of this old law. People who move into Indiana have the more common calibers and would be able to hunt with guns they already own. It is cost prohibitive to have to build a gun with a wildcat cartridge that fits inside Indiana's narrow regulations. My dad has hunted with a shotgun his whole life, and the recoil is getting painful in his older age. I would love to loan him my rifle that has much less recoil, but I am not able to afford to buy him a new one that happens to fit inside Indiana's narrow caliber rules.
As far as the arguments against using modern cartridges, any bullet is lethal. If a hunter is shooting without being certain they have an effective backstop then they are willing to risk someone's life for a deer. You can't legislate his ethics. Hunter education should cover these safety issues, if a hunter chooses to ignore them the best you can do is prosecute them if they are caught. I personally would be fine with charging a hunter for Endangerment for shooting without a backstop. If they are shooting from a stand, the ground is a backstop. If they are shooting uphill where the bullet can keep on traveling, it would be murder if it hits someone. As far as how far a bullet travels before killing someone, it's irrelevant if it kills someone.
If you are arguing for modern calibers you should include a list of why it is a good thing.
My argument for legalizing modern calibers would be
More accurate so you will have a cleaner kill. The animal will suffer less, and you will have less deer run off wounded only to have the hunter not retrieve it, and shoot another.
More people own the more common calibers, so you may have more people take up interest in hunting, selling more licenses and increasing Indiana's revenue.
Many from out of state may hunt here since the rifle's they already own can be used also increasing Indiana's revenue by selling the higher priced out of state licenses.
Most modern rifle calibers have a lower recoil than a shotgun, allowing older hunters to hunt longer. It may also reduce injuries of people falling out of stands due to the heavier recoil knocking them off balance in a tree stand.
Be careful what counter arguments you use. If you claim rifle calibers in pistols are not different than a rifle, they may pass regulations prohibiting use of pistols with rifle calibers.
I do know people who hunt who intentionally take this risk. I was floored when a coworker of mine once claimed he didn't want rifle calibers approved because a shot might go over a hill and kill someone. I told him a true hunter would be certain of his backstop, his reply was if he had to wait for a good backstop he would never have a chance to shoot at a deer. I have heard of people shooting into brush and taking a gamble, etc. These people are out there, but you can't regulate everyone for actions a few might make. If we did this, no one would be allowed to even own a gun.
Good luck with your petition. It would be a good thing. If I ever take up hunting, I will build a 458 socom in an AR 15 platform under the current rules. Expensive as it is, I prefer a modern rifle.
avboiler11
Master
Paul30 said:
Agreed.
You gotta admit though, 300 Blackout being legal from a 15.5" AR pistol but not from a 16" AR rifle...
The counter to the "safety" argument so often thrown up in discussions like this is evaluating hunter-involved accidental shootings in states that allow modern centerfire rifles vs. those that do not. Such a study has been posted numerous times - states that allow modern rifles (like Kentucky) don't have meaningfully higher rates of stray bullets hitting property or people compared to shotgun-only states.
States that allow modern rifles don't have brigades of jackasses hunting deer with FMJs from their milsurp Mosins.
States that allow modern rifles still have a high number of trophy bucks harvested.
ad infinitum
Opposition to allowing modern centerfire rifles is an emotional one, something akin to "I DONT LIKE CHANGE" or "Think of the children" with a good bit of "I don't want more hunters in MY woods shooting MY deer" sprinkled in.
Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
The purpose of the law is to build fences or seek economic rents.
I wanted to thank you Paul you have given me alot of good advice and it means alot to me that you would take the time to help me. I will do my best to improve on it give me a few days to correct it and any further advice would be greatly appreciated. I have been having a bad case of insomnia lately so I need to catch up on my sleep before I do a overhaul to my letter but thank you again. Anyone else's advice or input would be a huge help even if you guys would like to write it the way you think would make a better argument for hunting with rifles we could pull our work together after all this is for everyone in Indiana not just me.
You are welcome. I would also consider cutting them off before they give you the old "it's for safety" comment. I would point out that those who claim people will be killed by stray bullets by the dozens, said the same thing when other states tried to pass handgun carry laws when we had them for years. The laws passed, the licenses were issued, and none of the paranoid nightmares came to pass. As has already been pointed out, you could always word it to include the insight written in this thread where many other states have common calibers and do not suffer stray bullet problems. If they want to argue flat terrain, Oklahoma and Kansas are about as flat as you get and they don't have those problems either. It all comes down to hunter education, and personal responsibility once you have that education.
I understand that Indiana DNR is hesitant about allowing cartridges like 30-06 or .300 Win. mag for hunting deer in our relatively flat state but cartridges like 45-70, 444 Marlin and even the grand old 30-30 should be allowed. If they are gonna allow people to use an encore pistol in any caliber .243 or bigger I don't believe a rifle in the same caliber is much worse for the publics' safety. I have an encore with a .308 barrel and I was so bad with that rig that I won't hunt with it. I think allowing a handgun like that and not a rifle in the same caliber is a bit silly.
I don't agree with the restrictions for the simple fact it's just for deer. During squirrel and coyote season you can use what you want but not deer. So i don't really believe it's because of a flat state like i used to. If it was we would be just as regulated during those seasons too right? So why so much regulation on deer? I personally use a shotgun anyways. Always have. I looked into getting a rifle at the start of the year but i wound up getting a dedicated slug gun instead because i didn't want to go into all these large calibers and have to find some gun to shoot it from. I was gonna just wind up with a 44mag lever gun. But wound up with a pump 12gauge. An upgrade from my 20autoloader that hates slugs. I'll stick with a shotgun until they change the law so it's not so restrictive. And even then i don't know if i would switch. I've done just fine and never had a problem with a shotgun.
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