Indiana Constitutional Carry 2017

[brotherbill3]

Several instances documented by members right here on INGO.

+1 ... though I do not remember the name of the Sheriff Dept Lieutenant that stopped me on my Bicycle Ride w/ my wife ... 2011/2012 ...

 

[gregr]

As things currently stand in Indiana, if an officer checks the validity of your driver's license, a flag on the report indicates whether or not you are an LTCH holder. That's probably the fastest way for an officer to know.


States rights? 10th Amendment? I believe that the states have agreed that a driver's license is valid in all 50 states for purposes of interstate commerce (which the Federal government is permitted to regulate per the Constitution). Not sure what the argument is about the interstate validity of marriage licenses (I'm not entirely sure that we need marriage licenses...but we do need legal registration of marriages which the license provides). The issue here is whether or not permission to carry a handgun is a Federal issue or a state issue. And, that seems to be the core of the argument against Indiana's LTCH. Since carrying a handgun is a right granted by the 2A and is otherwise regulated by the Federal government, what, exactly, are the states accomplishing by further regulating it?

Does "regulating" the Second Amendment infringe upon it?

 

[ATM]

...Everyone loves to b***h about taxes, but I don't hear anyone coming up with a better way to provide for that upkeep.

Better ways than the State monopoly? You're either joking or you haven't looked.

Google "Who will build the roads?" and delight yourself with the enormity of enlightenment to follow.

 

[Bill of Rights]

My point was not well-made, though I am hopeful this explanation will suffice.

I haven't looked, you're correct, and I'm not so much making that my argument as noting the fact that making a change of that magnitude, removing the highways from federal ownership when it was federal (i.e. "taxpayers'") money that built them, when without playing the summer study committee game, we can't even pass Constitutional carry as a common sense measure just within our own state, is going to be more of an uphill battle than I think we're able to fight. Note that I referenced ability, not willingness, though on the part of most, both are lacking. (I do hasten to say that Rep. Lucas using that method to keep fighting to pass Constitutional carry is ingenious, and I fully support his efforts, despite my decrying the fact that he couldn't just get the bill heard and passed. The failure there is not his.)

You know well that I'm about as minimalist/"minarchist" as can be. I'm also a pragmatist, though, and realistically, I don't see the roads all being privatized before our great great grandchildren are dead and buried. Thus, within our current system, which, like it or not, and I know neither of us does, the tax is the way to get the roads fixed. Not the best way, overall, just within the boundaries we presently live within.

Blessings,
Bill

Better ways than the State monopoly? You're either joking or you haven't looked.

Google "Who will build the roads?" and delight yourself with the enormity of enlightenment to follow.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Ehhh.. Not necessarily. Ron Paul was given a donation by a group of "skinheads", a la Aryan Nation (I don't know and am not in the mood to look up if it was that specific group, but it doesn't much matter) He accepted the donation, but made clear that they would not have his ear because of it. In short, he said he was keeping it because their money spends just like everyone else's and if they gave it to him, they didn't have it to give to someone who might be inclined to listen to them and give them some part of what they wanted. In addition, $500 to an individual and $2000 to the whole caucus is nothing, a micro-drop in the bucket, to Bloomberg. He vowed to spend $50 million in the 2014 election, did so, and still only gained a very few positions, despite outspending the NRA's total donations personally. I've not looked, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that he spent more than he spent on the GOP, maybe an order of magnitude more, on the Democratic caucus, in the hopes they would possibly take back one of the houses of the legislature, or even the Governor's mansion.



Fair question, and I didn't mean to come across as pedantic, I'm sorry if I did. We as a society might have accepted that federal encroachment upon territory they have no authority to enter, but some of us individually have not accepted that at all. (though I think it's fair to say no one is going to admit to violating those laws, if they do.) Be that as it may, that's not your point. As to why Indiana specifically, but the several states generally regulate what the fedgov also regulates, I don't know. We do it in re: firearms in the secure/"sterile" area of airports, we have done it in re: SBS and machine guns, and we do it in re: GFSZA, though not to the distance the fed extends to include. I'm sure there are other places as well, unrelated to firearms.

Perhaps the reasoning is that it is a revenue stream. That would make sense, as $125/license x 15% of the population licensed is one hell of a chunk of change. One method I suggested to Mr. Lucas recently was that Indiana could open the availability of the Lifetime LTCH/reciprocity license/whatever to those who live elsewhere, such as Utah, Arizona, and Florida do. There is no reason I can think of why we shouldn't cash in on that revenue that presently is paid only to those few states that offer non-resident licenses without strict limitation. My thought was that those funds would possibly replace or even exceed what we pay in each year. Now that I think about it more, it is possible we don't offer that for the same reason that our LTCH has for years not been accepted in lieu of a NICS check: ISP does not check federal records or those of other states, only someone's Indiana criminal history. Perhaps with fewer licenses to check, they could return to that practice, open it up to those living elsewhere, and replace or exceed the funds presently paid by us.

I have yet to receive an answer on this question from Rep. Lucas, however in fairness, he IS in the middle of the legislative session, my question/suggestion is of an appropriately very low priority, and he has many irons in the fire right now. It is my hope that he either has plans in place to include this suggestion or will see it from me and pass it along to Senators Messmer and Freeman, and remove LE concerns regarding funding.

Blessings,
Bill

I think there are a couple issues here, all of them come down to money. The incoming money clearly exceeds what it takes to support the LTCH program, and the departments benefiting from LTCH dollars don't want to admit it. The "X (workload) decrease will offset the Y (resources: manpower, equipment and supplies) decrease" programmatic way of thinking I have from my Air Force years seems to not exist elsewhere.

I guess what kind of stuns me is that the "How the hell do I fund my department to provide a specific level of service to the community?" question isn't new. When Police Departments switched from horses to cars I'm thinking there was some flailing about. Radios? How that new technology is expensive and now we need dispatchers. SWAT? What's SWAT? Those Special Weapons And Tactics are EXPENSIVE!

The first step in problem solving is to identify the actual problem. There's a funding problem, OK how did you make the change from horses to cars? Apply the same techniques only now you have Power Point. Identify the X-Y offset from the work going away and develop a plan to fund the delta and identify what goes away if the funding isn't replaced. Death, pestilence, and locust will occur if X funding is not replaced from the LTCH program converting to reciprocity only. Here are 3-4 options for replacing the lost revenue. Props to Bill of Rights for providing one with non-resident Indiana LTCH.

OK, time to find the Senators to e-mail/call/Postcard/etc.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Meanwhile NAGR is publishing this: "As if it couldn’t get any worse for State Rep. Jim Lucas, documents have just been discovered showing that House Speaker Brian Bosma and the House Republican Campaign Committee received contributions from Michael Bloomberg’s radical anti-gun group “Everytown for Gun Safety.” Lucas has the audacity to claim that Speaker Bosma is working to pass Constitutional Carry, even though he has killed it year after year. And now it is abundantly clear why Constitutional Carry hasn’t moved an inch. Just like Judas, House Speaker Bosma was bought off for mere shillings to kill off your gun rights, and Jim Lucas is giving him cover"

Good grief.

 

[chipbennett]

According to this report, there were 776,500 active Indiana LTCH's at the end of 2016. If all of them are lifetime licenses, and I suspect they aren't, then $125 x 776,500 = approx $97 million. But, if those are all lifetime licenses, that's a one-time, non-recurring payment. There were 661,364 licenses at the end of 2015, so that's a growth of approx 115,000 in a contentious election year. $125 x 115,000 is an annual revenue stream of approx $14 million assuming lifetime permits continue to be issued at a high rate. But, the state doesn't get all of that $125. $50 goes to the local jurisdiction. And, that right there, may be why the ISA does not support this legislation. The sheriffs know that it would hurt their local revenue streams.

Indeed, opposition to constitutional carry is directly related to LEA loss of a poll-tax cash cow.

So, at the risk of getting tarred and feathered by the entire populace of INGO, what about replacing the LTCH fee with a special firearms sales tax to be collected at retail?

OK. The "thank you sir, may I please have another" line from the hazing scene in Animal House comes to mind.

As for Rep. Lucas, I started following him on Facebook. He, along with just about every other state legislator, is getting hammered over the proposed new gasoline and vehicle excise taxes to help pay for highway maintenance and construction. Republicans proposing new taxes and Democrats fighting the proposal? Cats and dogs living together? We live in interesting times.

Sure. Right after the state implements a special polling-place tax, to be collected each election day (or perhaps a special house-of-worship tax, to be collected at the beginning of each worship service).

Oh, that's right: poll taxes are unconstitutional, because they are a tacit infringement on the exercise of voting.

 

[T.Lex]

Meanwhile NAGR is publishing this: "As if it couldn’t get any worse for State Rep. Jim Lucas, documents have just been discovered showing that House Speaker Brian Bosma and the House Republican Campaign Committee received contributions from Michael Bloomberg’s radical anti-gun group “Everytown for Gun Safety.” Lucas has the audacity to claim that Speaker Bosma is working to pass Constitutional Carry, even though he has killed it year after year. And now it is abundantly clear why Constitutional Carry hasn’t moved an inch. Just like Judas, House Speaker Bosma was bought off for mere shillings to kill off your gun rights, and Jim Lucas is giving him cover"

Good grief.

Wait - is the part about getting money from Everytown true? That would be disconcerting.

Not a tragedy - politicians get money from lots of places, because they need it. It would just indicate a certain tone-deafness.

If it is fake news, well, that should just be another nail in the NAGR coffin.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

T, I honestly don't know. Either way nothing good comes from this. Either it's true, but they're unaware (pretty low dollar contributions), or it's fake and NAGR is hurting the cause beyond measure.

 

[jamil]

Yes. It's true. That was addressed on Guy's show. In short, that donation was donated to charity rather than being returned, because giving it back would jus allow those funds to be used for undesired pruposes.

 

[T.Lex]

T, I honestly don't know. Either way nothing good comes from this. Either it's true, but they're unaware (pretty low dollar contributions), or it's fake and NAGR is hurting the cause beyond measure.

Hmmm... this is kinda funny.

The Indiana Secretary of State has a search function. I didn't see Lucas receive anything from Everytown.

But...

Contributor City, State Type Amount Date Candidate/Committee Name In Kind? Large? Everytown for Gun Safety AF New York, NY Direct $500.00 12/12/2016 Committee To Elect Brian Bosma No No View Everytown for Gun Safety AF New York, NY Direct $500.00 11/01/2016 Matt Lehman for State Representative No No View Everytown for Gun Safety AF New York, NY Direct $2,000.00 10/26/2016 House Republican Campaign Committee No No View Everytown for Gun Safety AF New York, NY Direct $2,000.00 11/03/2016 SENATE MAJORITY CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE (SMCC) No No View Looks like just in December Everytown gave money to Bosma. Not clear that he even knew about it.

 

[brotherbill3]

It was noted in Guy's broadcast - along with quietly stated that Bosma has his LTCH -

Given the numbers in the House PP committee ...
Dermody heard: 2014 1 HB, 1 SB, 2015 1 SB, 2016 1 HB
Smaltz heard 2017 - 4 HB ... SB's pending (up to 4) ...

Beginning to thing maybe Bosma wasn't the stick in the mud - or he's starting to get out of it (the mud) ...

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Yes. It's true. That was addressed on Guy's show. In short, that donation was donated to charity rather than being returned, because giving it back would jus allow those funds to be used for undesired pruposes.

Gotcha. I need XFM in my truck so I can get Guy's show. So...NAGR is just making things worse. Or am I over simplifying?

 

[Jacke]

HB 1159:
Ding-dong, the bill is dead! Wicked old bill? The wicked bill
Ding-dong, the wicked SLOPPY bill is dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HeHe!!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Gotcha. I need XFM in my truck so I can get Guy's show. So...NAGR is just making things worse. Or am I over simplifying?

On target.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

HB 1159:
Ding-dong, the bill is dead! Wicked old bill? The wicked bill
Ding-dong, the wicked SLOPPY bill is dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HeHe!!

Are you going to enlighten us on how it was sloppy?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If your rep is Dvorak, Forestal, Goodin, Hatfield, Klinker, Macer, Moed, Moseley, J. Taylor, or Wright, you are represented by a Democrat who voted to pass HB 1071.

Shelia Klinker may be many things, but she is an old fashion politician first and foremost. She knows her district extremely well and actually shows up whenever 3 or more people gather in Lafayette.

I was at a microbrew fest, er, a friend of mine was at a microbrew fest in downtown Lafayette and Shelia Klinker was there, scarf, pearls, shaking hands and talking to people. All those hipsters in pork pie hats and bad facial hair and a beer nerd lawyer and his moron friends and there she was.

 

[2A_Tom]

HB 1159:
Ding-dong, the bill is dead! Wicked old bill? The wicked bill
Ding-dong, the wicked SLOPPY bill is dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HeHe!!

.
What a ...

 

[KellyinAvon]

HB 1159:
Ding-dong, the bill is dead! Wicked old bill? The wicked bill
Ding-dong, the wicked SLOPPY bill is dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HeHe!!

Obvious troll is obvious. BACK, BACK, BACK UNDER YOUR BRIDGE!!!

 

[chipbennett]

HB 1159:
Ding-dong, the bill is dead! Wicked old bill? The wicked bill
Ding-dong, the wicked SLOPPY bill is dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HeHe!!

Dudley Brown, is that you?