Indiana church's sign viewed as knock on Allah

[BloodEclipse]

If there is a God, and if that God is singular, then there is only one "true" God to worship. But there are no end of "false Gods" that can be worshipped.

I can agree with that.
What if it is just man's perception of the singular God that is wrong.
I for one am very glad this discussion has stayed civil.
Is it possible that man has over complicated God?
Is it possible there is more than one path to God and he is, to each individual, personalized to them?
How can so many people be wrong and all believe so fervently that their way is the only way?

 

[jpo117]

I am saying that if there is "one god" then most (if not all--I do not eliminate that possibility) of the beliefs about said God are, to put it bluntly, wrong.

Well, yeah! That's kind of the point! Just because I believe some things about God that are wrong--and by virtue of the fact that we are all human, I believe we all do--does not mean that I or you or that other guy over there are all worshiping false gods. Our modern understanding of the nature of the divinity of Christ took centuries to evolve--does that mean that the earliest Christians, including St. Paul and the authors of the Gospels, were all worshiping a different God than I do today? Was the first Pope worshipping a different God than the current Pope? I wouldn't think so.

Our understanding of God evolves over time, and maybe even devolves in some cases; that doesn't mean that God changes. And while there are truly great differences in humanity's collective understanding of God, I believe that those whose faith is rooted in the Lord of the Hebrews (yes, even those nasty Muslims everyone is going on about) do worship the same God regardless of the accuracy of their beliefs, or our individual disappointment should we one day learn how wrong we've been all along

But really, it's all just semantics, isn't it?

 

[henktermaat]

I can agree with that.
What if it is just man's perception of the singular God that is wrong.
I for one am very glad this discussion has stayed civil.
Is it possible that man has over complicated God?
Is it possible there is more than one path to God and he is, to each individual, personalized to them?
How can so many people be wrong and all believe so fervently that their way is the only way?

This is a threadjack, but it sounds to me like popular relativism has poisoned your belief system. The idea that "there can be many paths" is mutually exclusive with the Bible's claims. In other words, If you believe that, you cannot believe the Bible.

Sounds like a lot of believers these days believe and follow their own comfortable socially PC and ecceptable version of Christianity... and know little of what is actually in the Bible.

I would be more than happy to discuss this via PM or in another thread.

 

[redneckmedic]

Sounds like a lot of believers these days believe and follow their own comfortable socially PC and ecceptable version of Christianity... and know little of what is actually in the Bible.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Admit it most of us here are really "Infidels" and don't care if we offend the Muslums.

 

[dburkhead]

I can agree with that.
What if it is just man's perception of the singular God that is wrong.
I for one am very glad this discussion has stayed civil.
Is it possible that man has over complicated God?

Then all are wrong and the "god" they worship is not the "true" god (if such a being actually exists).

Is it possible there is more than one path to God and he is, to each individual, personalized to them?

Then any religion where the belief is that there is only one path (which would include Islam and many flavors of Christianity) is wrong and the "god" that they worship who dictates that "one way" thing is simply not the "true God" but yet another of an endless series of "false gods."

How can so many people be wrong and all believe so fervently that their way is the only way?

What does being right have to do with the strength of belief? Being right and being certain have nothing to do with each other. People have fervent beliefs in things that are wrong all the time. Just look "Inside the Beltway" in the DC area.

 

[Phil502]

Sounds like a lot of believers these days believe and follow their own comfortable socially PC and ecceptable version of Christianity... and know little of what is actually in the Bible.

Yes, that and maybe what they are willing to believe, it's not a bad thing really, you can still follow the spirit of Christianity and be a better person for it. IMO.

 

[lyric911]

You are either spoiling for an argument, you're purposely trying to offend, or your momma never taught you any manners. You're looking for an argument that just isn't there, as my "delicate sensibilities" never came into this. I've presented the facts with logic and reason, devoid of emotion.

Yes, I am saying there can only be one true God. Personal beliefs aside, it's just logic.

2 comments:

1) Logic dictates that there could be zero true gods.

2) I don't think anyone is saying anything to disagree with that. The bible and the koran are human interpretations of events (a lot of them overlapping) that are ascribed to a supernatural being. The being can be the same with different human interpretation. Thus the same god with different names and stories.

An analogy: Let's say you have a brother. You call you mom by "mom" he calls her by "mother". You and your brother have spent time with your mom separately from each other, and thus have different stories about mom. This same entity now has different names and different stories, but is clearly the same person. This is precisely how Christianity's God and Islam's Allah came to be in our knowledge of them.

 

[BloodEclipse]

What does being right have to do with the strength of belief? Being right and being certain have nothing to do with each other. People have fervent beliefs in things that are wrong all the time. Just look "Inside the Beltway" in the DC area.

Oh they know it's not right... they just wish it was.

 

[dburkhead]

Well, yeah! That's kind of the point! Just because I believe some things about God that are wrong--and by virtue of the fact that we are all human, I believe we all do--does not mean that I or you or that other guy over there are all worshiping false gods. Our modern understanding of the nature of the divinity of Christ took centuries to evolve--does that mean that the earliest Christians, including St. Paul and the authors of the Gospels, were all worshiping a different God than I do today? Was the first Pope worshipping a different God than the current Pope? I wouldn't think so.

Our understanding of God evolves over time, and maybe even devolves in some cases; that doesn't mean that God changes. And while there are truly great differences in humanity's collective understanding of God, I believe that those whose faith is rooted in the Lord of the Hebrews (yes, even those nasty Muslims everyone is going on about) do worship the same God regardless of the accuracy of their beliefs, or our individual disappointment should we one day learn how wrong we've been all along

But really, it's all just semantics, isn't it?

No. It is not "just semantics." Many of these differences aren't minor little quibbles but fairly fundamental differences over the nature of divinity. If one person's "god" requires them to enslave or otherwise submit, or just outright kill, everyone who will not follow that particular form of divinity and another claims as one of their basic "Articles of Faith" that "We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all other men the same privilege, worship who, how, or what they may" (Yes, the Latter Day Saints is very nearly unique in having Religious Freedom as one of the core tenets of their religion) then you cannot say they are the same God. It's not a matter of different emphases or different "perspectives" it's a matter of completely contradictory beliefs.

Whether a carpenter known to his peers as Jeshua ben Joseph (known, thanks to Luke translating the name and adding the Greek form of a title to it as "Jesus Christ"), is merely a human prophet, the Son of God, or God himself taken physical form, is pretty important and a belief in one excludes a belief in the others.

If the set of characteristics that form the Islamic conception of "God"/"Allah" is correct then the set of characteristics at the core of most forms of Christianity would be a "false god" and vice versa. The sets of beliefs are not compatible. (NB: one being wrong does not make the other right--there's also the possibility that they're both wrong.)

A lot of people seem to be taking the position that there is only one god therefore anyone who worships one God that has even some connection, however tenuous of what they think that one God is that they are worshiping the same God. That doesn't, however, follow. If nothing else because unless the God is sitting their in some tangible form and they are worshiping that, what they are worshiping is not the deity itself but their concept of the diety. They are worshiping what they imagine the God to be and different people have all sorts of different imaginings, each imagining is their god, to them, and each is different.

 

[dburkhead]

2 comments:

1) Logic dictates that there could be zero true gods.

2) I don't think anyone is saying anything to disagree with that. The bible and the koran are human interpretations of events (a lot of them overlapping) that are ascribed to a supernatural being. The being can be the same with different human interpretation. Thus the same god with different names and stories.

An analogy: Let's say you have a brother. You call you mom by "mom" he calls her by "mother". You and your brother have spent time with your mom separately from each other, and thus have different stories about mom. This same entity now has different names and different stories, but is clearly the same person. This is precisely how Christianity's God and Islam's Allah came to be in our knowledge of them.

However if you describe your mother as being 5' 4" tall with pale skin (without makeup) and green eyes and your brother describes his mother as being 6' 8" tall, hunchbacked, black as the Ace of Spades (without makeup), and purple eyes, would you then conclude that you had the same mother?

That is closer to how Islam's Allah and Christianity's God are described.

 

[lyric911]

However if you describe your mother as being 5' 4" tall with pale skin (without makeup) and green eyes and your brother describes his mother as being 6' 8" tall, hunchbacked, black as the Ace of Spades (without makeup), and purple eyes, would you then conclude that you had the same mother?

That is closer to how Islam's Allah and Christianity's God are described.

Well, yes, because eye witness reports can almost never be trusted.

 

[BloodEclipse]

However if you describe your mother as being 5' 4" tall with pale skin (without makeup) and green eyes and your brother describes his mother as being 6' 8" tall, hunchbacked, black as the Ace of Spades (without makeup), and purple eyes, would you then conclude that you had the same mother?

That is closer to how Islam's Allah and Christianity's God are described.

So it's not possible that men of differing Religions are not worshiping the same god?
Try this on for size.
Four men of differing religions all pray to their God, they abide by the Ten Commandants. They live each day to better themselves as servants to God. They avoid what they perceive as negatives within their religion and only do those things they find moral and good.
Will your God regardless of your religion Judge them the same?
Will only the man of your Religion make it to heaven while your God banishes the rest to Hell?

Edit: This is not a direct question to David, more of an open question to everyone.

 

[jpo117]

A lot of people seem to be taking the position that there is only one god therefore anyone who worships one God that has even some connection, however tenuous of what they think that one God is that they are worshiping the same God. That doesn't, however, follow. If nothing else because unless the God is sitting their in some tangible form and they are worshiping that, what they are worshiping is not the deity itself but their concept of the diety. They are worshiping what they imagine the God to be and different people have all sorts of different imaginings, each imagining is their god, to them, and each is different.

So is it your position that one cannot worship God but only one's personal idea of God? Or maybe that one can worship God, but only if that individual has a full understanding of the nature of God? Or that if one has a misunderstanding or incorrect belief about the characteristics of God, that individual is denied the ability to worship God because of that misunderstanding? It almost sounds like the idea of "worshiping God" is, in the framework of the above quote, virtually meaningless--we're all just worshiping the false god in our own imaginations, hoping somehow that the real God out there will give us good marks for effort. I suspect you may not actually feel that way, but that's what the quote says to me.

If you are in fact saying that Muslims and Christians worship different gods because everybody worships a different god from everyone else regardless of their religion anyway, then we do in fact have a semantic disconnect. We should make sure we agree upon what it means to say that we worship God before we can continue in a meaningful way.

However if you describe your mother as being 5' 4" tall with pale skin (without makeup) and green eyes and your brother describes his mother as being 6' 8" tall, hunchbacked, black as the Ace of Spades (without makeup), and purple eyes, would you then conclude that you had the same mother?

My perception of my mother has no bearing on whether or not she gave birth to me. Same with my brother. A better question: If I describe my mother as loving and nurturing while my brother describes his mother as cruel and sadistic, is it reasonable to conclude that we actually have different mothers?

 

[henktermaat]

After reading the last two pages, I see that you are now all discussing philosphy, and the current worldy fad is to believe that there can be no absolute truth. You guys are all squarely in that camp.

 

[Bruenor]

After reading the last two pages, I see that you are now all discussing philosphy, and the current worldy fad is to believe that there can be no absolute truth. You guys are all squarely in that camp.

I'm glad that I don't follow fads.

 

[henktermaat]

I'm glad that I don't follow fads.

 

[gund]

So... after this long discussion. Anybody move an inch from their initial position?

I learned a few things, but I was disappointed some pertinent questions were not answered.

 

[Phil502]

If Muslims and Christians, for the most part, don't think they worship the same God, then how can they? Barring the argument that there is only one God and we all see him/her differently.

 

[LLDJR]

I have studied the Quaran some, and did 2 hour presentation on it, Allah is the Arabic for God/Creator and they believe in Jesus as merely a prophet and they believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, but "fainted" and then came down from the cross and lived a long prosperous life thereafter, OR, it was really Judas Iscariot that was crucified and it was made to "look like Jesus" They also believe that the Bible was mucked up in translation and so God had to give Mohammed the "true word" because of this.

Islam teaches that the Books of Moses are accurate and that God promised a blessing to the seed of Ishmael and not Issac, and that Ishmael was promised the land that Israel currently resides on. Ishmale's seed has been blessed, with oil, but not with the land. The Bible teaches that Issac will inheret the land of Israel and that the Messiah/Christ will come from the seed of David and the Tribe of Judah, which stems from Issac.

It is my personal opinion, that they are worshiping the Creator, which is GOD, and although they call God Allah in Arabic, I believe they and we are worshiping the same God/Creator.

The distinction is that they believe that "works" may or may not get you into Heaven. I own a Quran for my studies and it is an interesting read, especially if you know /study the Bible.

The Bible teaches that Salvation is obtained by Faith in Christ + nothing gets you into heaven.

I post this merely for informational purposes, not to debate.