Indiana church's sign viewed as knock on Allah

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  • dburkhead

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    Not quite. I'm not saying that since there is only one God, any worship directed toward any god is actually worship of the one. What I'm saying is that if you and I choose to worship the same god but we both come to radically different conclusions about that god based upon our personal experience of that god, we are still worshipping the same god.

    That's circular reasoning. You can't assume that two folk are woshiping the same God and then use that as evidence that they are actually worshipping the same God.

    You're argument boils down to "if we're worshiping the same God then we're worshiping the same God." Well. Duh. But that doesn't support the claim that folk actually are worshiping the same God.

    One of us may be doing it wrong, but the worship is still directed at the same "place".

    Does not follow.

    So if two Jews point toward the Torah and both say "I worship that God", they do. And if a Christian points to those same books and says "I worship that same God (and by the way, here's some more of God's revelation for your perusal)", then she still worships that same God (though she might be doing it wrong).

    Now add, "But God didn't actually part the Red Sea, and all those prophecies about a coming Messiah? Forget them" or similar changes, not just "additions" but outright contradictions and you'd be closer.

    And if a Muslim points toward the Christian Bible and says "I worship that same God (but really, the final authority on God's full revelation to man can be found in this book I have right here)", then she too is still worshiping the same God, just in a different and possibly incorrect way.

    Sorry but that does not follow. Christians worship a God that is the literal father of Christ or a God that took physical form to become Christ (depending on flavor of Christianity). Muslims worship a God that did not do those things.

    To play a bit with the Beatles analogy it would be like saying "I'm a fan of John Lennon for writing Octopus's Garden" and someone else saying "I'm a fan of John Lennon for writing Maxwell's Silver Hammer." Since John Lennon didn't write both (in fact, he wrote neither--another possibility that people often neglect in discussions of this kind), even though they use the same name ("John Lennon") for both the author of Octopus's Garden and the author of Maxwell's Silver Hammer they are not talking about the same author since the same author did not write the two songs.

    Don't confuse the label with what the label is applied to. Don't confuse the map for the territory.

    I guess I'm saying that the individual's intent determines
    the object of her worship, even if that worship is fundamentally flawed in some way.

    The problem with that argument is that anyone who "intends" to worship what they think is the "one true God" whether that God is YHWH, "Allah," Odin, Loki, Raven, Enlil, Shiva, Tezcatlipoca, or something you or I have never even imagined would, by that argument be

    Note that I'm not saying that Jewish, Christian, and Muslim teachings all have to be compatible with one another in order for them all to worship the same God. And I do understand what you mean by stating that the object of worship is determined by the conception help by the worshipper--I'm just coming at the problem from the other direction.

    I think it really does come down to a fundamental difference in our respective understandings of "worship". That's cool, though, because I think we've gotten to understand what each other are saying, and that's the fun part anyway. :yesway:

    Actually, I think the difference is more fundamental than that. Here's a little thought experiment for you: can you imagine any worship of what someone believes is "one true God" that would not be worship of the "same God" as that of Christians? If not, then I submit that your definition is such as to be meaningless*. If so, then consider what makes that God different from that of Christians and whether those distinguishing characteristics are fundamentally different from the distinguishing characteristics between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

    *To be meaningful, a word, statement, argument, or what have you has to have possible situations where it is true and those where it is not. It has to discriminate between categories (true/false, is/is not, etc.). A statement that is always true, say "it is raining or it is not raining" tells you nothing about the world. In formal logic this is called a tautology and it and it's converse, a statement that is always false (a contradiction), are considered logical flaws.
     

    versuchstier147

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    God and Allah are the same.

    This is my proof. Yes, I keep The Bible, Koran, and a 9mm automatic in the desk drawer.

    picture.php


    I open first the Holy Bible to a random page.

    picture.php


    And find the same words, in the Koran!

    picture.php



    The books are 3/4 the same. Same stories. Same people. Same book. Written in different languages and have evolved with different cultures differently over the span of a thousand years.
     

    BloodEclipse

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    In the trenches for liberty!
    God and Allah are the same.

    This is my proof. Yes, I keep The Bible, Koran, and a 9mm automatic in the desk drawer.



    I open first the Holy Bible to a random page.



    And find the same words, in the Koran!




    The books are 3/4 the same. Same stories. Same people. Same book. Written in different languages and have evolved with different cultures differently over the span of a thousand years.
    :redxdance::redxdance::redxdance:
     

    henktermaat

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    God and Allah are the same.

    This is my proof. Yes, I keep The Bible, Koran, and a 9mm automatic in the desk drawer.

    picture.php


    I open first the Holy Bible to a random page.

    picture.php


    And find the same words, in the Koran!

    picture.php



    The books are 3/4 the same. Same stories. Same people. Same book. Written in different languages and have evolved with different cultures differently over the span of a thousand years.

    Hey look, I found the same phrase in the Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising and in Little Women. They're written by the same people in the same culture. There's my proof, they're the same. :nuts:
     

    SavageEagle

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    Why? :dunno: the point is picture-proof. You're telling us you believe that something is the same as long as is is 3/4 similar.

    I suggest you look up "the same" in a dictionary. Perhaps you could take a photo while you're at it...:D

    That's also like saying Catholics and Baptists don't pray to the same God...

    :dunno:

    Look. There is one God. Whether you call him (or her) Buddha, Yehweh, Allah, Joe Bob, Zeus, whatever. He is the same. Whether your controlling religion describes him the same is a different story.

    Then again, for all we know, God could just be a being from a different Universe and we are his science experiment and Earth is his petri dish.

    Personally, I believe in God. The one true God that has sent Angels to Earth that have saved me from certain death many times.

    This has been a very interesting thread to say the least and I have much research to do now.

    :patriot::ingo:
     

    henktermaat

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    That's also like saying Catholics and Baptists don't pray to the same God...

    :dunno:

    Look. There is one God. Whether you call him (or her) Buddha, Yehweh, Allah, Joe Bob, Zeus, whatever. He is the same. Whether your controlling religion describes him the same is a different story.

    Then again, for all we know, God could just be a being from a different Universe and we are his science experiment and Earth is his petri dish.

    Personally, I believe in God. The one true God that has sent Angels to Earth that have saved me from certain death many times.

    This has been a very interesting thread to say the least and I have much research to do now.

    :patriot::ingo:

    I am trying to do this using clear logic. My personal beliefs, in which the spaghetti monster rules all, don't even come into play in this:

    Catholics and Baptists are both Christians who agree on the essentials of Christian doctrine. They both define God the same. Allah and God are different, as defined by their respective holy books. Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, period.

    Saved from death a few times? Wow - it woulds like you have some interesting stories to tell :)
     

    SavageEagle

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    I am trying to do this using clear logic. My personal beliefs, in which the spaghetti monster rules all, don't even come into play in this:

    Catholics and Baptists are both Christians who agree on the essentials of Christian doctrine. They both define God the same. Allah and God are different, as defined by their respective holy books. Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, period.

    Saved from death a few times? Wow - it woulds like you have some interesting stories to tell :)

    Meh. I give up. I'll just sit back and enjoy the show on this one. I'm still trying to figure things out for myself anyhow.

    And yea, I got some stories. Some I'm not so proud of, but you live and learn. :thumbsup:
     

    versuchstier147

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    Indiana
    So, two different God's lit two different bushes, for two different Moses', at the same time, at the same place...?

    If it was too blury for you to read, I could have transcribed it for you.

    Yes, I looked that up in the Dictionary!


    tran⋅scribe

     /trænˈskraɪb/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [tran-skrahyb] Show IPA Use transcribed in a Sentence

    See web results for transcribed

    See images of transcribed

    –verb (used with object), -scribed, -scrib⋅ing. 1. to make a written copy, esp. a typewritten copy, of (dictated material, notes taken during a lecture, or other spoken material). 2. to make an exact copy of (a document, text, etc.).


    Regrettably, I could not find "the same"
     

    henktermaat

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    So, two different God's lit two different bushes, for two different Moses', at the same time, at the same place...?

    If it was too blury for you to read, I could have transcribed it for you.

    Yes, I looked that up in the Dictionary!


    tran⋅scribe

     /trænˈskraɪb/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [tran-skrahyb] Show IPA Use transcribed in a Sentence

    See web results for transcribed

    See images of transcribed

    –verb (used with object), -scribed, -scrib⋅ing. 1. to make a written copy, esp. a typewritten copy, of (dictated material, notes taken during a lecture, or other spoken material). 2. to make an exact copy of (a document, text, etc.).


    Regrettably, I could not find "the same"

    Also look this up while you're at it: "counterfeit"

    The Muslims took a previous work, kept some of it, added to it, re-defined God, and packed it up as something new with the purpose of being enough like the old thing to fool folks. It apparently worked, since rational thought has disappeared from our planet.
     

    henktermaat

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    Phil - tell me where I can find that line, and the bit about the 72 virgins and I'll take a picture of it and post it.

    Cool- photograph these for us:

    Virgins in heaven:
    Surah 37:40-49
    38:50-54
    44:51-57
    52:17-22
    55:54-56
    56:11-37


    Kill the infidel:
    Sura 2:98
    2:161
    2:191
    2:193
    8:39
    2:216
    3:140-43
    3:157-8
    3:169-71
    4:74
    4:76
    4:89
    5:14
    5:54
    8:39
    8:65
    8:67
    9:2-3
    9:5
    9:28
    9:29
    9:41
    9:73
    9:111
    9:123
    10:4-15
    33:60
    41:14
    47:4
    47:5
    48:25
    48:29
    66:9
    98:51
     

    redneckmedic

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    Jan 20, 2009
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    Greenfield
    Look. There is one God. Whether you call him (or her) Buddha, Yehweh, Allah, Joe Bob, Zeus, whatever. He is the same. Whether your controlling religion describes him the same is a different story.

    This has been a very interesting thread to say the least and I have much research to do now.

    Start with a Case for Christ.
    Amazon.com: The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (9780310209300): Lee Strobel: Books

    A Seasoned Journalist Chases Down the Biggest Story in HistoryIs there credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God?Retracing his own spiritual journey from atheism to faith, Lee Strobel, former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, cross-examines a dozen experts with doctorates from schools like Cambridge, Princeton, and Brandeis who are recognized authorities in their own fields.Strobel challenges them with questions like How reliable is the New Testament? Does evidence for Jesus exist outside the Bible? Is there any reason to believe the resurrection was an actual event?Strobel's tough, point-blank questions make this Gold Medallion-winning book read like a captivating, fast-paced novel. But it's not fiction. It's a riveting quest for the truth about history's most compelling figure.What will your verdict be in The Case for Christ?"Lee Strobel probes with bulldog-like tenacity the evidence for the truth of biblical Christianity."Bruce M. Metzger, Ph.D., Professor of New Testament, Emeritus, Princeton Theological Seminary"Lee Strobel asks the questions a tough-minded skeptic would ask.

    Wow, now we have a trend of advice, coming from the same person who said to go to the doctor, but not listen to the advice given by them. :dunno:

    You couldn't be any further from the truth, the history, the facts.
     
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