Indiana, back to phase 1?

[Expat]

I'm going to just throw this out here again because many of you seem to gloss over it.

Wearing a mask at a store or workplace doesn't equal wearing a mask outside of those places. All these people complaining about wearing masks are certainly not wearing them at other gatherings that don't require it. There are many many places that aren't enforcing it and have large gatherings of people inside a small area.

If you have a group of 10 people over I bet you aren't making them wear masks. This notion of numbers are going up so masks don't work is dumbfounding. You could only say this with certainty if you had observed every new covid case and verified that they indeed were in an environment where everyone was wearing masks and seeing as you cannot do that, you have no proof or legitimacy to claim that numbers going up means masks don't work.

I've gone into restaurants where the people in the kitchen aren't wearing them and the person taking the order takes theirs off to talk. That right there completely negates even wearing them. Masks won't be as effective if everyone isn't participating. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp.

I'm sorry if you're "sick of it."

As I recall, one of the reasons Fauci and Birks were saying no masks at the start was because they said people would not be able to wear them properly and would do more harm than good. They may still be true.

 

[ajeandy]

Daughter just called. They are closing down the grandsons' school until the end of November now. Personally I think it will be much longer.

Yes, I have a family member who works at a school in center grove...kids are getting it and giving it to the staff.

This goes back to hospital capacity. Yes the virus itself hasn't proven to be extremely mortal if you get treated and you have a bad case of it, but if you're unable to be treated and you have a bad case and other conditions it can kill you. There would be nothing worse than having all of our hospitals at 100% capacity and have some sort of civil unrest breakout where people are getting hurt and there's no room at the hospitals.

If there is no ICU capacity they can't see you for anything regardless if it's covid, GSW, car accident, etc.

 

[ajeandy]

As I recall, one of the reasons Fauci and Birks were saying no masks at the start was because they said people would not be able to wear them properly and would do more harm than good. They may still be true.

I'm not sure exactly why they said no masks at the start. I believe it was because they were unsure how the virus spread at the time and didn't think it would filter / stop anything as the virus itself is smaller than what the masks are rated to filter. They later learned it mostly traveled in the air via vapor / water particles which were big enough to be caught by masks. Once again, not 100% sure on the initial reason why they didn't recommend masks but I "think" that was why w/o doing some research.

 

[wagyu52]

As I recall, one of the reasons Fauci and Birks were saying no masks at the start was because they said people would not be able to wear them properly and would do more harm than good. They may still be true.

 

[KittySlayer]

I'm not sure exactly why they said no masks at the start. I believe it was because they were unsure how the virus spread at the time and didn't think it would filter / stop anything as the virus itself is smaller than what the masks are rated to filter. They later learned it mostly traveled in the air via vapor / water particles which were big enough to be caught by masks. Once again, not 100% sure on the initial reason why they didn't recommend masks but I "think" that was why w/o doing some research.

They didn't initially recommend mask yet they were begging for people to donate their masks to provide PPE for caretakers.

 

[IndyDave1776]

.

I'm sorry if you're "sick of it."

In that case I wish on you my chronic health problems that interfere with breathing. Maybe you would get it under those circumstances.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

This is because we have had it with the BS my friend. Had it. Done. Over it.

I'll repeat since some forget this, I'm a libertarian and masking or not is an individual choice.

BUT, don't (the OPs I quoted) say that "we've" been wearing masks for 6 months and they don't work. "We" haven't.

You are at as much or more risk in your mentioned "Travels" than from this bug.

Quantitatively false... as I showed in the other thread, the current Indiana COVID death rate is 12 times the Indiana traffic fatality rate... and rising.

I will just remind everyone and you especially.....99+% survival. That means a very small percentage of those among us will succumb to this. And the rest of us have lives to live. Family's to raise. Houses to pay for Etc and so on.

Just some math using your 99+%... 1% would mean 3.46 Million dead Americans. Most sources I've seen put the real fatality rate at half to a quarter of 1%, but that's a lot of dead people.

This has got to stop. And now.

THIS we can agree upon, it's the "how" that we are at great odds about.

And, IMO, there is some real dissonance going on.

Blue collar workers, those that work with their hands, who have to be physically present to do their job, in general, are far more anti-mask and far less likely to wear masks.

And, again in general, white collar office workers who are way more likely to be able to continue their job while working remotely, are also far more likely to adopt wearing masks when out and about.

I think there is a lot of evidence that masks work both in knocking way down the number of people who get infected AND lessening the severity of those who do get infected while wearing a mask. BOTH of those help keep us open and avoid severe lock downs.

Lockdowns are devastating financially to everyone, but those who have to work in person are impacted first, and the effects on mental/physical health are also devastating.

Nobody wants another lock down. IMO, masks prevent that and if the hospitals and ICUs get over-run from COVID and we have people dying without care, COVID or all the other health issues that require hospitalization, with no hospital beds for them, then no governor can avoid imposing a "real" and severe lock down.

THAT is why I'm still on here.

 

[wagyu52]

People put a mask on and suddenly they are impervious to COVID or so they thought.
At the start of this way back in March we had 6ft distance, wash your hands and avoid touching your face and COVID cases subsided. Then we put masks on and all the rest of it went right out the window. What do you touch to put a mask on? How many people you see take a mask on and off, adjust it and wash their hands first? How many people you see with masks on social distance 6ft having a conversation?

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'll repeat since some forget this, I'm a libertarian and masking or not is an individual choice.

BUT, don't (the OPs I quoted) say that "we've" been wearing masks for 6 months and they don't work. "We" haven't.



Quantitatively false... as I showed in the other thread, the current Indiana COVID death rate is 12 times the Indiana traffic fatality rate... and rising.



Just some math using your 99+%... 1% would mean 3.46 Million dead Americans. Most sources I've seen put the real fatality rate at half to a quarter of 1%, but that's a lot of dead people.



THIS we can agree upon, it's the "how" that we are at great odds about.

And, IMO, there is some real dissonance going on.

Blue collar workers, those that work with their hands, who have to be physically present to do their job, in general, are far more anti-mask and far less likely to wear masks.

And, again in general, white collar office workers who are way more likely to be able to continue their job while working remotely, are also far more likely to adopt wearing masks when out and about.

I think there is a lot of evidence that masks work both in knocking way down the number of people who get infected AND lessening the severity of those who do get infected while wearing a mask. BOTH of those help keep us open and avoid severe lock downs.

Lockdowns are devastating financially to everyone, but those who have to work in person are impacted first, and the effects on mental/physical health are also devastating.

Nobody wants another lock down. IMO, masks prevent that and if the hospitals and ICUs get over-run from COVID and we have people dying without care, COVID or all the other health issues that require hospitalization, with no hospital beds for them, then no governor can avoid imposing a "real" and severe lock down.

THAT is why I'm still on here.

This makes sense if you believe the numbers we are given. Based on observations of manipulation I do not.

 

[ajeandy]

In that case I wish on you my chronic health problems that interfere with breathing. Maybe you would get it under those circumstances.

Oh I imagine getting covid will be much worse for those than wearing a simple surgical mask.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Arguing with a fool is a waste of time. I do not have time at a surplus to waste.

 

[ajeandy]

Arguing with a fool is a waste of time. I do not have time at a surplus to waste.

Well you're on here aren't you?

 

[chezuki]

Arguing with a fool is a waste of time. I do not have time at a surplus to waste.

Then you’re in the wrong place my friend.

 

[avboiler11]

Per yesterday's ISDH COVID Dashboard update, the state has a cumulative Case Fatality Ratio of 2.20%. IU Health's statewide seroprevalence study has estimated 10 actual infections for every known confirmed positive, which largely jives with the study that generated the above infographic that estimated a cumulative statewide community (non-long term care resident) IFR of 0.26% and recorded an actual average age of COVID death at 76.9 years old.

Digging deeper into yesterday's ISDH data, LTC facility residents represent just 5.71% of Indiana's COVID confirmed positives but 57.48% of its COVID deaths; CFR of LTC residents is 22.17%.

Removing LTC positives and deaths from cumulative state data, you'd get 180,814 total confirmed positive cases and 1,796 deaths for a CFR of 0.99% for residents of the community at large. Adjust estimated actual infections for known confirmed positives and, well...its definitely looking 0.25% or less cumulative IFR for the community at large and MUCH lower for those under the age of 60.

Of course, severe disease that doesn't kill but requires a 1-2-3 week stay in a hospital ties up medical resources and presents real issues beyond simple mortality...and that's a lot different than someone admitted for 24 hours or less with moderate COVID for supplemental O2, dexamethasone, vitamin D and zinc.

This isn't March or April, we have enough information to know who is most vulnerable...

 

[Route 45]

Well you're on here aren't you?

 

[HoughMade]

If a person really has breathing problems so bad they can't wear a mask...they had better self-isolate.

 

[Joniki]

We will be going back under lock down within the next few days....

 

[Ark]

Per yesterday's ISDH COVID Dashboard update, the state has a cumulative Case Fatality Ratio of 2.20%. IU Health's statewide seroprevalence study has estimated 10 actual infections for every known confirmed positive, which largely jives with the study that generated the above infographic that estimated a cumulative statewide community (non-long term care resident) IFR of 0.26% and recorded an actual average age of COVID death at 76.9 years old.

Digging deeper into yesterday's ISDH data, LTC facility residents represent just 5.71% of Indiana's COVID confirmed positives but 57.48% of its COVID deaths; CFR of LTC residents is 22.17%.

Removing LTC positives and deaths from cumulative state data, you'd get 180,814 total confirmed positive cases and 1,796 deaths for a CFR of 0.99% for residents of the community at large. Adjust estimated actual infections for known confirmed positives and, well...its definitely looking 0.25% or less cumulative IFR for the community at large and MUCH lower for those under the age of 60.

Of course, severe disease that doesn't kill but requires a 1-2-3 week stay in a hospital ties up medical resources and presents real issues beyond simple mortality...and that's a lot different than someone admitted for 24 hours or less with moderate COVID for supplemental O2, dexamethasone, vitamin D and zinc.

This isn't March or April, we have enough information to know who is most vulnerable...

Destroying our economy and nuking our civil liberties over this is the worst miscarriage of public policy I have ever witnessed in my lifetime. Old and sick people dying in nursing homes is not a tragedy or a crisis. A flu is not a crisis.

 

[buckwacker]

I read an article comparing the 1918 pandemic with this one. Adjusting for differences in population, the 1918 pandemic would have killed more 3 million people today. They didn't shut down people's businesses, lock people in their homes, and force everyone to wear masks. No one wants to get sick or die, but it appears we've become a bunch of self absorbed pansies compared to our countrymen of a hundred years ago.

 

[churchmouse]

I read an article comparing the 1918 pandemic with this one. Adjusting for differences in population, the 1918 pandemic would have killed more 3 million people today. They didn't shut down people's businesses, lock people in their homes, and force everyone to wear masks. No one wants to get sick or die, but it appears we've become a bunch of self absorbed pansies compared to our countrymen of a hundred years ago.

Well, they were not pushing for mail in ballots on a POTUS level election so .......