IMPD Patrols

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  • Indy317

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    ..most police and firefighters are strong and in good shape...

    Are you sure about this?

    Anyways, the fact is that what we are seeing in Indy is just what happens in big urban area politics. At the federal level, this country is a double W, or WW country, or whatever you want to call it. The Ws stand for warfare and welfare. Huge "gains" in our country are due solely to waring and bailing out individuals and businesses. People are shocked that local governments of larger urban areas took this same path. We have taxpayer funded stadiums, hotels, parking garages, etc.. However, many of these facilities have nothing to do with government, they are operated by "private" businesses who take more than they give back.

    As these governments grew, certain areas went overboard on wages and pension benefits. Part of this is due to the changing nature of LE. We went from a job where if someone just stole something, you shot them in the back and went from there. As law makers and judges passed more and more restrictions, this requires people with more logic skills than may have been needed in the past. As such, wages had to go up. The downside is that too many of these big-government areas had politicians that were in bed with public unions. Pensions were tied to wages, and as wages went up, so did pension obligations. Not only that, rules were lax in some areas, where someone could get promoted their last year of service and have their entire life pension based on that one last year of service where they were making $7-$10K more per year.

    This was unsustainable, collapse is inevitable, and we are seeing the collapse happen right now. A city in Rhode Island slashed pension payments by 50%. Bankruptcy courts are going to be ruling on these pension issues for years to come.

    Oh, this is why I don't live in Indy. The property tax caps make it a little less easier to consider living in the city, but the fear of enormous tax hikes to bailout such a free spending pay-to-play government is just too much.
     

    IndyGunworks

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    Just to toss it out there, the indianapolis public firefighters pension is one of the top 10 in the country and is 98.5 percent funded by its own members. its one of the most sound pensions in the country and is truly self sustaining.
     

    Frank_N_Stein

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    Ask SGT Steve Duell. He was my 1st Sergeant during Desert Storm. Plus I have a number of friends in IMPD.

    I'm sure Sgt Duell and your other friends would appreciate you talking badly about their department and would be jumping all over each other to be first in line to defend you.

    IMPD has problems, too many guys on a power trip. But then half of any academy class will be gone in 5 years. The real training for cops is done by their TAC officer. If the TAC is corrupt, good chance the recruit will pick bad habits. That first year is whether a cop learns it right or wrong. And too many IMPD officers have power issues. It may be the IMPD is too big and needs to be split into several agencies along township lines.

    I'm glad I have never met a member of the military on a power trip. :rolleyes: You know nothing about the average IMPD officer, but I understand your opinion.

    But then the average cop in Indiana tended to have played high school football or baseball (bunch of jocks, especially off duty). They become police because they miss the feeling of being on a team.

    I played football, baseball, golf, and wrestled. I was far from a jock, but I enjoyed sports. I didn't become the police because I missed the feeling of being on a team. I became the police because when I first started out I actually thought that I could help people.

    All I ask is that I be respected by police officers. To not be pushed around or treated like ****. Too many gun owners now feel that way.

    I don't expect to be respected just based on my position or uniform. I too asked to not be treated like ****. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt until I have reason not to, but I'm not going to kiss anyone's ass.

    But then I work for government. If I get mistreated, I can bring a world of hurt via the system. Too many buddies who are now high up in IMPD, MCSD or ISP.
     

    IndyGunworks

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    but I'm not going to kiss anyone's ass.

    and thats where the issues w/ people start from. they feel ENTITLED to you kissing their ass because they PAY your salary. Its a loosings situation from the get go.

    I have a feeling that trooper here feels entitled to respect regardless of if he gives it or not.
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    "Why not have everyone certified as a police officer? Have a reserve force of 100,000? Keep the full timers but have a very large reserve force that has surge capacity in times of emergency. We are required to have a "well regulated" militia (all males between 17 and 45). We are failing to insure that all males are self disciplined and prepared to serve. Mandatory service could change that."

    I like this idea-but w/o keeping the full timers-fire 'em and give 'em a job cleaning the donut trays
    I was joking of course about the donut trays but i thought the point was well made about getting back to basics-a round the clock citizens patrol-basically get set up to take care of ourselves w/o all the politics and BS-now about what to do w/all these paid guys...:rolleyes:

    To start off, not everyone could physically qualify to be a police officer; not everyone is mentally suitable for police - or even security - work; about 20% of some ethnic groups have prior criminal history; it would be difficult to tell the criminals from the Reserve Cops. On top of that - most people don't want the hassle of police work.

    Mandatory service gets you minimally-qualified service-members who don't want to be there, don't feel any obligation to behave appropriately, and generally bring down the entire organization.

    Please try again later. . .
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    most police and firefighters are strong and in good shape, but that's calling for IronMan Triathalon-type tough.

    Are you sure about this?

    I probably should have qualified it: "most NEW/YOUNG police and firefighters are strong and in good shape. Like infantry and most others who live a fairly active life and overexertion is a common fact of that life, by the time cops and firefighters get to middle age, they're experiencing all the problems of middle age, and sometimes problems the rest of us wouldn't get until we were much older.
     

    cityartisan

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    Dec 7, 2011
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    "Why not have everyone certified as a police officer? Have a reserve force of 100,000? Keep the full timers but have a very large reserve force that has surge capacity in times of emergency. We are required to have a "well regulated" militia (all males between 17 and 45). We are failing to insure that all males are self disciplined and prepared to serve. Mandatory service could change that."

    I like this idea-but w/o keeping the full timers-fire 'em and give 'em a job cleaning the donut trays

    To start off, not everyone could physically qualify to be a police officer; not everyone is mentally suitable for police - or even security - work; about 20% of some ethnic groups have prior criminal history; it would be difficult to tell the criminals from the Reserve Cops. On top of that - most people don't want the hassle of police work.

    Mandatory service gets you minimally-qualified service-members who don't want to be there, don't feel any obligation to behave appropriately, and generally bring down the entire organization.

    Please try again later. . .
    Will do. I had misread the "mandatory" quote and had in mind a volunteer force that would have to meet the same requirements as the paid guys. This way you'll have people who want to work over those who would have to. Also, if this were to be brought up again, i think it should be in a forum other than "political discussion", as it might be played out more constructively in another one.:yesway:
     

    IndyGunner

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    Keep telling yourself that when we have so few officers that even emergency runs will pend for hours before they are taken care of. If the citizens of Indianapolis want us to effectively do our jobs we need to have adequate manpower to do it. Right now most of the busier areas of town are reactive only and so long as they can't be proactive, the crime rate will rise.

    I don't mean to be rude... but maybe if we had our cops focus on real crimes instead of wasting manpower on petty revenue generators we wouldn't need as many nor would crime rates rise.
     

    BDBHoover

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    Mar 11, 2011
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    Okay... As a citizen who has applied for full time and reserve officer in every county surrounding marion county and have applied for marion county (full time)

    Just to let all of you know.... When going through a hiring process for these departments the chances of you getting hired are pretty slim.... Went through Danville's hiring process and there were 100+ applicants for the 1 position they were hiring for and turns out that the 1 officer hired was already ILEA certified..... The problem isn't with lack of citizens wanting the jobs, it is the department's lack of funding to have more than 1 position available for hire in a 13 month period.... IMPD has had this very same issue but for a much longer of a period....

    To say to legalize certain things because of the lack of enforcement makes no sense to me what so ever.... The city is so hung up on sports, it is quite ridiculous.... We spend multi-millions of dollars on a stadium for a sports team when we already had a stadium that we still owed money on and our police force and fire departments are deteriorating every year for lack of funding.....

    Personally I commend every officer that is willing to go out everyday to protect civilians and am very hopeful that one day I could join you all....

    Denny, Frank and VUPD.... Thank you for what you guys do....
     

    Indy317

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    Just to toss it out there, the indianapolis public firefighters pension is one of the top 10 in the country and is 98.5 percent funded by its own members. its one of the most sound pensions in the country and is truly self sustaining.

    Can you give more details about this? In order to be 98.5% funded by the members, wouldn't the members need to be contributing about half their paycheck to the fund? What is the ROI % used for the amount invested? Many pension plans have used ridiculous 7-10% ROI projections, or maybe we should really call them dreams. What is the retirement pension for an IFD like: Payout %, age, years of service needed, etc.?
     

    VUPDblue

    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
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    Mar 20, 2008
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    I don't mean to be rude... but maybe if we had our cops focus on real crimes instead of wasting manpower on petty revenue generators we wouldn't need as many nor would crime rates rise.

    bwahahahahahaha! That ideal is so ludicrous I don't even know where to start. I am, of course, assuming that you mean traffic tickets when you reference "revenue generators". If that is what you mean then I am here to tell you that is absolutely bass-ackwards. We simply don't have time to write traffic tickets just for the sport of doing so. The run load is so heavy and manpower is so light that if a guy went out writing tickets, his beat partners would take him behind a shed and kick his ass.
     

    IndyGunworks

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    Can you give more details about this? In order to be 98.5% funded by the members, wouldn't the members need to be contributing about half their paycheck to the fund? What is the ROI % used for the amount invested? Many pension plans have used ridiculous 7-10% ROI projections, or maybe we should really call them dreams. What is the retirement pension for an IFD like: Payout %, age, years of service needed, etc.?

    I didnt mean funded by our paychecks entirely. I mean that its a closed system thats self sustaining. The city still contributes alot on each members behalf.

    32 years max's it out. once your maxed out the most you can draw is 76 percent of a 3 year firefighters pay.

    So if i work 32 years, and retire as a nobody, i will still draw the same amount as the highest most senior person on the job.

    I dont know what the ROI they used was, but for some reason i am thinking 5.something or 6.something

    and its not much, which is why we are sound.
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    I didnt mean funded by our paychecks entirely. I mean that its a closed system thats self sustaining. The city still contributes alot on each members behalf.

    32 years max's it out. once your maxed out the most you can draw is 76 percent of a 3 year firefighters pay.

    So if i work 32 years, and retire as a nobody, i will still draw the same amount as the highest most senior person on the job.

    I dont know what the ROI they used was, but for some reason i am thinking 5.something or 6.something

    and its not much, which is why we are sound.

    I'm not sure how that can be since Police & Fire Pension underfunding has been a major political failure since Steve Goldsmith was mayor - and possibly before that.
     

    Denny347

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    As a former Marion County Merit Deputy, my retirement is 100% private and 100% funded. That is why I pay into social security and the former IPD does not. I still get the MCSD retirement even though we are merged but I just hope it is still there in 15 yrs when it's my time.
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    As a former Marion County Merit Deputy, my retirement is 100% private and 100% funded. That is why I pay into social security and the former IPD does not. I still get the MCSD retirement even though we are merged but I just hope it is still there in 15 yrs when it's my time.

    Yep, you folks have a different pension system than the traditional IPD guys had. And the City failed to fully fund IPD/IFD for a number of years extending back, as I said, at least to the Goldsmith era (which is when I first heard about it).
     

    Walt K.

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    As a former Marion County Merit Deputy, my retirement is 100% private and 100% funded. That is why I pay into social security and the former IPD does not. I still get the MCSD retirement even though we are merged but I just hope it is still there in 15 yrs when it's my time.

    How is the retirement of any public employee private?

    Is not public employee retirement, like public employee current compensation, funded by he public?
     

    IndyGunner

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    bwahahahahahaha! That ideal is so ludicrous I don't even know where to start. I am, of course, assuming that you mean traffic tickets when you reference "revenue generators". If that is what you mean then I am here to tell you that is absolutely bass-ackwards. We simply don't have time to write traffic tickets just for the sport of doing so. The run load is so heavy and manpower is so light that if a guy went out writing tickets, his beat partners would take him behind a shed and kick his ass.

    You know what you get when you assume... or maybe you don't...
     

    IndyGunworks

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    How is the retirement of any public employee private?

    Is not public employee retirement, like public employee current compensation, funded by he public?

    No. You have a set salary, then out of that salary comes your contributions to the pension fund thats managed by the private sector. The funds are NOT maintained by the city/state.

    You could make the arguement that because the salary comes from taxpayers makes the pension public, but then i could argue that GM's pensions are not truly theirs because i bought a GM car and thats where they got the money to pay their paychecks/pension.
     

    Walt K.

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    No. You have a set salary, then out of that salary comes your contributions to the pension fund thats managed by the private sector. The funds are NOT maintained by the city/state.

    You could make the arguement that because the salary comes from taxpayers makes the pension public, but then i could argue that GM's pensions are not truly theirs because i bought a GM car and thats where they got the money to pay their paychecks/pension.

    The state does not force you to purchase an auto. The state does force citizens to fund public employee payroll.

    Also, GMs pensions were funded by taxpayers. That happened in the taxpayer bailout whereby secured creditors were kicked to the curb and the company's pension obligations were met with taxpayer funded newco stock....all in violation of US bankruptcy law.

    But it appears the reference to "private" is being used to describe the sector managing the funds, from where the funds came. (ie the public / taxpayer).

    Understood.
     
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