IMPD Patrols

[Trooper]

Denny hit the nail on the head with this one. IANALEO but a Volunteer FF/ EMT and Fire Instructor. In my world the amount of people interested in serving their community for free is decreasing every year. We still get a few people every year that show up but usually run away fast when they are told what the training requirements are. The days of mayberry RFD are long over. Tell a person that on top of their FT job that before they can even respond on an emergency run that they are going to be spending around 20 hours a week for 6 months going to class to earn the certifications that are required then at least 6 hours a week after that just to maintain their training they usually aren't interested. And who can blame them? I personally would have loved to have spent the 9 hours I was away from my family saturday with them instead of doing hands on training for the recruits in my current class. I am all for safety and training but it seems every year the .gov piles on more mandatory training.



Very little. But they CAN be trained. I have found Military veterans to be very receptive to training.



Funny you say that. I have a recruit in my current class who was an air force Firefighter. He is good to go on how to open a nozzle but when I started talking about Fire behavior he got one of these looks on his face. I did a research paper on fire streams years ago and used US Navy methods as a reference. I ams sure That military Fire training is great for their situations Structural Firefighting in the civilian world is a different matter altogether.

The Army has taken 1st aid training out of the program. Now every troop is trained as a Combat Life Saver (CLS) which is basic EMT training.

 

[IndyGunworks]

The Army has taken 1st aid training out of the program. Now every troop is trained as a Combat Life Saver (CLS) which is basic EMT training.

NEGATIVE. Combat lifesaver training is NOTHING like EMT training. There is a reason you become CLS certified in 3 days, but it takes 4 months to become an EMT. comparing these two is apples and oranges. a CLS cannot do what an EMT can do not only because of knowledge, but because of licensing, laws, medical direction ect. but an EMT can be a CLS w/ the exception of IV's and chest decompression.


Good luck finding someone willing to give up 6 months of their life for the fire academy and another 4 months for emt school, just to turn around and do the job for free.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

And if society was to be disarmed, police in the US would be even more heavy handed. Americans tend to be bullies.

I have to take issue with this statement. Everywhere I've ever been or heard of where the populace is largely disarmed, the police tend toward being bullies. I don't find that to be true as a whole locally, and haven't really experienced it elsewhere in the States.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

NEGATIVE. Combat lifesaver training is NOTHING like EMT training. There is a reason you become CLS certified in 3 days, but it takes 4 months to become an EMT. comparing these two is apples and oranges. a CLS cannot do what an EMT can do not only because of knowledge, but because of licensing, laws, medical direction ect. but an EMT can be a CLS w/ the exception of IV's and chest decompression.


Good luck finding someone willing to give up 6 months of their life for the fire academy and another 4 months for emt school, just to turn around and do the job for free.

The reason it took YOU four months is because you attend classes once or twice a week. Firefighters in training get their EMT certification in a couple weeks (three I think). It took ME four months because we were training at night two nights a week and a couple Saturdays during the course.

Reserve police officers can get their training the same way - or they used to when I was somewhat familiar with the program. In counties where full-time law enforcement is limited and where fire/ems protection is not paid-full-time, those communities manage to find volunteers enough to fill needed slots - and volunteer firefighters/emts are much more common throughout the US than paid full-timers. So it can be done, if the public sees a need for it. MCSD, for example, has had a Reserve Deputy program for many years which appears to be far larger than the IPD Reserve program.

 

[IndyGunworks]

Dont you think that someone who is going to do the job for free as a reserve would have to attend classes once or twice a week and it take 4 months as they probably already have some type of employment.

 

[TopDog]

You need to blame the voters who put a higher priority on sports welfare than an effectively run city.

 

[Trooper]

NEGATIVE. Combat lifesaver training is NOTHING like EMT training. There is a reason you become CLS certified in 3 days, but it takes 4 months to become an EMT. comparing these two is apples and oranges. a CLS cannot do what an EMT can do not only because of knowledge, but because of licensing, laws, medical direction ect. but an EMT can be a CLS w/ the exception of IV's and chest decompression.


Good luck finding someone willing to give up 6 months of their life for the fire academy and another 4 months for emt school, just to turn around and do the job for free.

It is called being a volunteer fire fighter.

And you can compress the EMT training into a far smaller time frame. Frankly civilian schools tend to waste time. And no one said that CLS was licensed, only that they had the training. Just as a 68W is trained at the Paramedic level but only takes the EMT basic test. It is up to their leadership to get them certified at the paramedic level. The military tends not to certify as civilians. A military A&P mechanic is just as well trained as anyone coming out of Purdue's aero program, just lacks the certification.

 

[IndyGunworks]

It is called being a volunteer fire fighter.

And you can compress the EMT training into a far smaller time frame. Frankly civilian schools tend to waste time. And no one said that CLS was licensed, only that they had the training. Just as a 68W is trained at the Paramedic level but only takes the EMT basic test. It is up to their leadership to get them certified at the paramedic level. The military tends not to certify as civilians. A military A&P mechanic is just as well trained as anyone coming out of Purdue's aero program, just lacks the certification.

A volunteer firefighting cert does NOT prepare you for the types of incidences you would see in marion county, PERIOD.

and there are a min number of hours needed to become an EMT per the state of indiana. And its about the equivilant of two four hour nights a week for 4 months. LEGALLY it cannot be done in less time unless you attend class full time (8 hours a day for three weeks) Most people that would be volunteering would not be able to dedicate that kind of time. Plus who would pay for this training?

Plus you have hazmat training as well as other trainings required. plus many firestations take as many as 20-30 runs in a 24 hour period, that would be VERY taxing on a volunteer force.

CLS licensing is not the issue. If you think that your CLS class prepares you to be an EMT in marion county then you need to go do a ride out w/ one of the busier ambulances and see for your self how your training does not even come CLOSE to applying to EMS in marion county.

I was a CLS instructor for years and have been an EMT for almost a decade and the two are not interchangable.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

It is called being a volunteer fire fighter.

And you can compress the EMT training into a far smaller time frame. Frankly civilian schools tend to waste time. And no one said that CLS was licensed, only that they had the training. Just as a 68W is trained at the Paramedic level but only takes the EMT basic test. It is up to their leadership to get them certified at the paramedic level. The military tends not to certify as civilians. A military A&P mechanic is just as well trained as anyone coming out of Purdue's aero program, just lacks the certification.

Generally not true, unfortunately. Army aircraft mechanics get basic training and some advanced training on their specific aircraft, but generally don't have the overall maintenance education of an A&P mechanic.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Dont you think that someone who is going to do the job for free as a reserve would have to attend classes once or twice a week and it take 4 months as they probably already have some type of employment.

That's the way the training is usually conducted. A volunteer is going to be volunteering whether he is taking training or giving up 16 hours a week volunteering in his Reserve status. People do it all the time; just not so much around Central Indiana (although there are plenty of Volunteer Fire Departments in the counties outside the Donut.)

 

[IndyGunworks]

It is called being a volunteer fire fighter.

I also dont understand where you think being a volunteer fire fighter is not a major time commitment to training?

once trained it may not be a major time commitment in a rural area but it would be a massive undertaking in a location like marion county.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I also dont understand where you think being a volunteer fire fighter is not a major time commitment to training?

once trained it may not be a major time commitment in a rural area but it would be a massive undertaking in a location like marion county.

Marion County doesn't need volunteer firefighters; it primarily is a Professional Paid Firefighter county (Decatur Township Fire Dept. may still have some volunteers; possibly Wayne Township - they were the last two townships to have volunteers). Most of the larger cities have Paid Professional departments, but many of the surrounding townships have Professional Volunteer departments.

 

[IndyGunworks]

Marion County doesn't need volunteer firefighters.

I thought that was what this thread was about? Saving money and supplementing public safety using a volunteer force?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I thought that was what this thread was about? Saving money and supplementing public safety using a volunteer force?

Nope, go back to the OP; it's about neighborhoods hiring private security to patrol because they don't think the police do it enough. The police say they don't have enough officers to do everything they're being called on to do. Marion County fire departments, for the most part, have enough manning to do what they're being asked to do, although their ambulance services are starting to be either privatized, or are being staffed by civilian EMTs/Paramedics at lower cost so that smaller staffing levels of fire fighters are needed.

Now that I think about it, a police agency with staffing issues caused by lack of money might come up with a couple alternatives if they thought "outside-the-box".

 

[the1kidd03]

I haven't read through the entirety of the posts regarding CLS and EMT and I'm limited on time at the moment. I'm not an expert in either but I do feel very confident in my abilities to keep someone in good health and alive in a majority of situations. Most of that I attribute to medical training, CLS, etc. from the Corps. Although, I've had the "opportunity" to be in many medical facilities for various reasons in my life and always make them a learning experience.

That being said a close friend of mine is a very busy, full time EMT in Marion County. We have discussed things a few times. While there are a few areas which they receive far more extensive training than CLS which they are more likely to need than a soldier, they are also impressed by my level of knowledge from CLS. I think the current CLS programs have come a LONG way from what they were even 10-15 years ago and VERY comparible to that of EMT as far as what they DO cover.

I also had the opportunity to sit in on an "emergency gunshot treatment class" put on by professional EMT trainers for local PD's recently. Let's just say, that as I've already stated I'm NOT an expert, but I was THOROUGHLY UNimpressed with the level of training/knowledge provided to police considering they are first responders.

Sorry to continure the derail, just wanted to put out a couple of important points. Carry on with the OP.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I haven't read through the entirety of the posts regarding CLS and EMT and I'm limited on time at the moment. I'm not an expert in either but I do feel very confident in my abilities to keep someone in good health and alive in a majority of situations. Most of that I attribute to medical training, CLS, etc. from the Corps. Although, I've had the "opportunity" to be in many medical facilities for various reasons in my life and always make them a learning experience.

That being said a close friend of mine is a very busy, full time EMT in Marion County. We have discussed things a few times. While there are a few areas which they receive far more extensive training than CLS which they are more likely to need than a soldier, they are also impressed by my level of knowledge from CLS. I think the current CLS programs have come a LONG way from what they were even 10-15 years ago and VERY comparible to that of EMT as far as what they DO cover.

I also had the opportunity to sit in on an "emergency gunshot treatment class" put on by professional EMT trainers for local PD's recently. Let's just say, that as I've already stated I'm NOT an expert, but I was THOROUGHLY UNimpressed with the level of training/knowledge provided to police considering they are first responders.

Sorry to continure the derail, just wanted to put out a couple of important points. Carry on with the OP.

CLS concentrates on saving lives from the effects of traumatic injury rather than worrying about how to diagnose COPD or heart ailments or diabetes.

Someone upthread says everyone in the Army is getting CLS nowadays; I wish it had been true 15 years ago.

 

[88GT]

It is called being a volunteer fire fighter.

And you can compress the EMT training into a far smaller time frame. Frankly civilian schools tend to waste time. And no one said that CLS was licensed, only that they had the training. Just as a 68W is trained at the Paramedic level but only takes the EMT basic test. It is up to their leadership to get them certified at the paramedic level. The military tends not to certify as civilians. A military A&P mechanic is just as well trained as anyone coming out of Purdue's aero program, just lacks the certification.

My friend, a mechanic is NOT an engineer. When was the last time you saw a mechanic calculate the sheer stress on a bolt?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

My friend, a mechanic is NOT an engineer. When was the last time you saw a mechanic calculate the sheer stress on a bolt?

I think he was referring to Airframe & Powerplant certifications, not the Aeronautical Engineering program.

 

[the1kidd03]

CLS concentrates on saving lives from the effects of traumatic injury rather than worrying about how to diagnose COPD or heart ailments or diabetes.

Someone upthread says everyone in the Army is getting CLS nowadays; I wish it had been true 15 years ago.

The more recent programs are VERY good. I can't speak for the Army, but Marines start medical training as early as boot camp and it's rather in depth for entry level training. They are not permitted to continue if they do not pass this portion of training. CLS simply builds on that. Granted, EMT's are going to cover a LOT more potential issues which they are likely to encounter, but as far as what CLS and medical training DOES cover in the military it's pretty much the same IME. I still have some CLS powerpoint training aids, but I believe they are even outdated to what is currently taught and they were made between 2003-2007ish

 

[the1kidd03]

I think he was referring to Airframe & Powerplant certifications, not the Aeronautical Engineering program.

Indeed. I attended there for a year before I decided against A&P.