I was ALMOST robbed today!

[HICKMAN]

I'm not saying the Ayoob, dosn't know what he is talking about, i'm just saying that if i could pick a trainer with an american name over him i would.

I'm curious... what is an "American" name to you?

Because most of the names in my son's Army unit aren't Smith, Jones, Brown, Johnson....

 

[jbrooks19]

Thank you everyone (Almost everyone) for destroying this thread and making it no longer about the initial issue. I will no longer reply to any more posts that do not relate to the incident.

 

[mainjet]

Rather than arguing this one person did it right or wrong is just something to banter about in our free time on a forum. I hope for all of our sakes nobody is deciding how they will handle a situation based on one persons particular incident. Rather, I hope that everyone is studying the LAWS to understand what is proper and improper in the use of a firearm.

I say this because your situation will most surely be different to some extent. It is at that point that you need to know what is lawful not what another guy did - they are completely different situations.

You alone pay for your actions. You do the time. You pay the price. They will not ask you what someone else did in this situation. So know what is legal to the best of your ability.

In this thread I have tried to show actual IC to support what I "believe to be a defendable position" for the OP. Does that mean that I would have done the exact same thing? The answer is, I don't know, I was not there to see the whole incident and to live it. But I believe based on the LAW he was "justified" in pulling the gun. I guess what many are arguing is was it prudent. Well unless we were each in this particular situation we will never be able to truly answer that. So thing that I believe we should learn from the incident is that we all need to know more about what is legal, NOT whether or not we would pull our gun in this situation.

For some reason people do not want to dispute the case based on IC but rather if he should have drawn. Why is that? It comes down to was it legal or was it not. I believe that I have shown it was legal - period. The rest of the argument is acting like he was an idiot for doing what was legal but maybe not prudent.

I personally want to first know the law. Then I want some training in how to safely handle my firearm so that I don't shoot myself or my family. Then I pray that I have a level enough head to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. I can't say that I call a buddy over to say "hey, you do this and I will do that" and let's see if I can win.

Funny thing about boxing training - the bag don't hit back! You get in the ring and the training certainly helps you no doubt. But now the bag hits back, ducks and weaves and does things that are unexpected. Then when this "bag" lands one on your chin and the room is spinning the dumb bag keeps hitting you until you are down. So we can all bark at the OP for legally defending himself from a "bag" that just might have a trick up his sleeve but why would we? I see that he took it to a level to stop the attack and no further. He reported it to the police and he came to a gun forum to tell about his experience. Live on.

And for those bagging on Hickman he just is advocating for training. I see nothing wrong with more preparation. He also admitted to something that he felt he was wrong about. I call that a stand up guy.

 

[Que]

I'm not saying the Ayoob, dosn't know what he is talking about, i'm just saying that if i could pick a trainer with an american name over him i would.

P.s. No one asked for your opinion, not to be rude

I'm not sure what an "[A]merican name" is, but if the information is any good, the person's name should not matter. If the information is crap, it would be just that even if his name was Thomas Jefferson.

If I were in your shoes, most likely I would have done the same thing. I'm one person and you won't have 100% of INGO members agree that you acted correctly. If someone comes from behind a building and say, "Give me all your money and I won't hurt you," I'm not sure they would not be shot. It would be too easy for me to say I would do 1, 2, 3 . . . while sitting behind my computer. Will I turn to see a gun, knife, or bottle? Will I simply hand over my wallet and then call the police? I'm just not sure.

You got home and you are safe. That's what's most important. Any of us have the opportunity to be judged by 12 or carried by six, but prayerfully none of us will ever have to make a choice necessitating either.

 

[HICKMAN]

Hick, you did not answer my question.
I asked what YOU learned from the so called " fof" training that YOU took!

Here is where I learned, feel free to sign up:

Adaptive Consulting & Training

Welcome to Fortress Defense Consultants Frank Sharpe - Instructor

Defense Training International, Inc. John Farnam

another good source locally, who I need to attend in the future is here on INGO as well:

Tactical Firearms Training, LLC

Not what Dr. Stick man said in a video! By the way, I quit watching your irrelevant videos as soon as the second guy started talking about homosexual activity! Thanks, but I, and no one else here I assume, appreciate that kind of language on INGO!!!

First of all, grow up. Massad Ayoob has been recognized as an expert witness for the courts in weapons and shooting cases across the country since 1979 and an LEO for almost 40 years. Pull up your big girl panties and learn something.

Show me where you learned that I am not legally allowed to draw or fire my weapon when threatened and/or assaulted!

And I'm still curious as to the number of punches one must take before using reasonable force to stop the assault!
You're the one that brought it up, so please tell us!

I know the answer in my case, you have to know that answer when sitting in front of the jury. You carry a gun and never considered any of this? Do you even have a gun lawyer to call if you get in a shooting?

 

[HICKMAN]

Thank you everyone (Almost everyone) for destroying this thread and making it no longer about the initial issue. I will no longer reply to any more posts that do not relate to the incident.

destroying this thread? Hell, you have done more in one thread to raise awareness to actual gun laws than since the inception of INGO!

 

[mike63502]

The good news is you didnt get hurt. Quick thinking saved your life. No need to be judged by 12 when there is no gun or weapon present

 

[HICKMAN]

In this thread I have tried to show actual IC to support what I "believe to be a defendable position" for the OP.

and you did a bang up job on the drawing the pistol part.

Think it took a turn when the OP said he's shoot the guy if he charged him. Then it turned into a justifying deadly force on an unarmed assailant case.


The only thing I'm really trying to advocate here is there is more to an LTCH than a gun and the Indiana Code. Until YOU have to sit in front of a full court justifying your actions... you really can't know. I should have gave up caring about this thread long ago... but if just ONE person goes and learns what they really can or can not do, it was worth the time.

 

[HICKMAN]

Show me where you learned that I am not legally allowed to draw or fire my weapon when threatened and/or assaulted!

See if this helps:

The "reasonable" argument also carries over to matters like fights. The law generally allows a person to use equal force or one level of force greater to protect themselves. So a person attacked with a knife could use a gun against the perpetrator, but a person who is shoved by someone could not legally shoot them.

"The response generally has to be commensurate with the threat," Gensel said.

And although Indiana law eliminates criminal liability if someone acts responsibly in using deadly force, the person could possibly be sued in civil court. Gensel said the burden of proof is less in a civil case and a jury could find the act of deadly force to be unreasonable.

The Indiana Law Blog: Ind. Law - "It's the Law -- 'Deadly force' can be justified against burglars, carjackers"


So if you can't shoot someone for shoving you, you darn sure can't shoot them before they even touch you... unless they have a weapon.

 

[bwframe]

...I was thinking who does this douche bag think he is?..............

...he was hispanic and they all look the same to me, so giving a accurate description was difficult...

The name Ayoob makes me think terrorist, therefor i will listen to nothing he has to say; if he wants people (Americans) to listen, HAVE AN AMERICAN NAME!!!!!!

Hmm, telling...?

 

[kyotekilr]

Thanks Hickman. I am going to look into the TFT outside the home course. It seems to be a good comprehensive course for a first timer.

 

[henktermaat]

This thread is just embarrassing.

 

[bwframe]

This thread is just embarrassing.

Yep!

 

[kyotekilr]

stop reading it then

 

[henktermaat]

stop reading it then

OK

 

[Bunnykid68]

OK

 

[ATM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob


Ayoob spelled backwards is Booya.

BOOYA!


It doesn't get much more American than that.



Just sayin'.

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

Rather than arguing this one person did it right or wrong is just something to banter about in our free time on a forum. I hope for all of our sakes nobody is deciding how they will handle a situation based on one persons particular incident. Rather, I hope that everyone is studying the LAWS to understand what is proper and improper in the use of a firearm.

I say this because your situation will most surely be different to some extent. It is at that point that you need to know what is lawful not what another guy did - they are completely different situations.

You alone pay for your actions. You do the time. You pay the price. They will not ask you what someone else did in this situation. So know what is legal to the best of your ability.

In this thread I have tried to show actual IC to support what I "believe to be a defendable position" for the OP. Does that mean that I would have done the exact same thing? The answer is, I don't know, I was not there to see the whole incident and to live it. But I believe based on the LAW he was "justified" in pulling the gun. I guess what many are arguing is was it prudent. Well unless we were each in this particular situation we will never be able to truly answer that. So thing that I believe we should learn from the incident is that we all need to know more about what is legal, NOT whether or not we would pull our gun in this situation.

For some reason people do not want to dispute the case based on IC but rather if he should have drawn. Why is that? It comes down to was it legal or was it not. I believe that I have shown it was legal - period. The rest of the argument is acting like he was an idiot for doing what was legal but maybe not prudent.

I personally want to first know the law. Then I want some training in how to safely handle my firearm so that I don't shoot myself or my family. Then I pray that I have a level enough head to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. I can't say that I call a buddy over to say "hey, you do this and I will do that" and let's see if I can win.

Funny thing about boxing training - the bag don't hit back! You get in the ring and the training certainly helps you no doubt. But now the bag hits back, ducks and weaves and does things that are unexpected. Then when this "bag" lands one on your chin and the room is spinning the dumb bag keeps hitting you until you are down. So we can all bark at the OP for legally defending himself from a "bag" that just might have a trick up his sleeve but why would we? I see that he took it to a level to stop the attack and no further. He reported it to the police and he came to a gun forum to tell about his experience. Live on.

And for those bagging on Hickman he just is advocating for training. I see nothing wrong with more preparation. He also admitted to something that he felt he was wrong about. I call that a stand up guy.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[mainjet]

and you did a bang up job on the drawing the pistol part.

That's all we were dealing with isn't it?

 

[HICKMAN]

Massad Ayoob - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Ayoob spelled backwards is Booya.

BOOYA!


It doesn't get much more American than that.



Just sayin'.