I was ALMOST robbed today!

[kyotekilr]

As they say " I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

 

[bubba16430]

First to the op, I think you did what you thought was right. Good job comeing out unharmed. I live about 1/2 a block from this speedway, my wife will no longer be parking to the side of this store.

There is no police record, no news story on this doesn't help either.

Hickman, About a month ago i help search for the neighbors daughter for about 2 hours. nothing in the papers. Did this also not happen? Alot of things in logan do not have a report filed or never make the paper.

 

[HICKMAN]

Self defense is self defense. If someone attacks me, I'm going to defend myself. If someone threatens me and I can not retreat, I'm going to draw. Even if that means keeping my weapon bladed down finger off the trigger. Yes, even if you draw, that does not mean you have to actually point the muzzle at the would be threat.

solid point

That's a choice we as individuals have to make. Do you not draw and take the chance of being wounded or killed. Or do you draw and deal with the repercussions, if any.

That's part of what they go over in most Force on Force classes and sort of what I was trying to get at earlier. Even so far as how many blows does one take from an unarmed attacker before being justified to use deadly force.

 

[HICKMAN]

First to the op, I think you did what you thought was right. Good job comeing out unharmed. I live about 1/2 a block from this speedway, my wife will no longer be parking to the side of this store.

Hickman, About a month ago i help search for the neighbors daughter for about 2 hours. nothing in the papers. Did this also not happen? Alot of things in logan do not have a report filed or never make the paper.

Go to know. In our town, we can't fart and not have it make the paper.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

solid point



That's part of what they go over in most Force on Force classes and sort of what I was trying to get at earlier. Even so far as how many blows does one take from an unarmed attacker before being justified to use deadly force.

I still somewhat follow by the use of force continuum. If I see no weapons and can retreat I will. If I have to go hands on, I will. As a last resort I will draw my sidearm or my knife. Verbal commands with consequences.

 

[Fordtough25]

Glad your ok OP and I don't blame you for defending youself. Every person has to make their own decision on how to defend themselves/their family.

 

[mainjet]

For example, how do you define a "reasonable threat?" The court will want to know and if you don't answer clearly it will be used against you. Then you will have explain how his actions justified the use of deadly force, which in this case it wasn't clearly. Simply "feeling threatened" is not enough in the court room. They will fry you for that being your only defense and why your attorney will tell you to "keep quiet."

IC 35-42-5-1
Robbery
Sec. 1. A person who knowingly or intentionally takes property from another person or from the presence of another person:
(1) by using or threatening the use of force on any person; or
(2) by putting any person in fear;
commits robbery, a Class C felony. However, the offense is a Class B felony if it is committed while armed with a deadly weapon or results in bodily injury to any person other than a defendant, and a Class A felony if it results in serious bodily injury to any person other than a defendant.
IC 35-41-1-11
"Forcible felony"
Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent danger of bodily injury to a human being.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.



I consider a reasonable threat when someone says they are going to hurt me if I don't do what they say or give my possesions to them. This is not my feeling it is what the law says as quoted above "by using or threating to use force or by putting me in fear of that force".

This would be a felony. From there you move to IC 35-41-3-2 also quoted above.

I don't carry a lawyer in my pocket. So I have to study the law as best I can and try to live within those laws. I only have my interpretation and memory of those laws and any training that I have taken. Have you ever forgot something that someone told you? Will you do everything exactly right, no matter how much training you have had? Probably not... So that puts you possibly in court. There will be two attornies there with two completely different ideas and interpretations of your actions as compared to the law. One will win and one will loose. Which one that is is up to the judge and the jury to decide. Even then it will possibly be appealed to a higher court where more judges, lawyers look at the lower courts decision based on the law.

Just because you take a training class it does not gaurantee that you will do it all right, remember it all right in the heat of battle, win in court or live happily ever after. It is the best way to make certain that you are doing everything possible to be right but sometimes people fail.

Read the codes and tell me where I am wrong. Again, if I am proven wrong then I am wrong and I will admit that I am wrong. I am not here to win but I am here to know what is right.

ETA -What do I believe is a "reasonable threat"? If a friend come up behind me and says "give me all your money or I will hurt you". I probably will laugh and probably not even turn around. BUT, if a stranger at a gas station comes up behind me and says that then I can reasonably believe that he means what he is saying. He already made the bold move to come up and say that to a grown man already. Why would I then believe that he does not mean what he says?

And finally- Yes, I do know that "Mute" and "Moot" are two different words with two different meanings. I knew this before I typed the wrong word but in my haste to get ready for work, I mistyped. So please, give it a break I also misspell words all the tyme (see)

 

[maxmayhem]

disagree

we dont have a duty to retreat...the weapon at his side was the best option....if he jumps in the car it boldens the attacker ...i believe you would have to turn your back to enter the car to some degree...tactical disadvantage...the person had already committed a crime by threatening to hurt him if he did not consent to being robbed...

Better question: Also, why didn't you physically get in your car, and call the cops then? You said you were about to. Drawing was always taught to me as the last possible route before death, and I would have handed him everything except the gun that is my lifeline, while attempting to gather as many details as possible. He leaves with his swag, I leave with my life. Go back in the gas station call 911 with the description of my car, name, license, car contents, etc. I think we needed the expanded version.

Seriously though, Glad you are ok. Just trying to gain insight.

 

[SirRealism]

I know that, I dont want to sound rude when I tell you that and it's easy for me to say that since I was not there.
It's just something we can talk about afterwards and that you can work on your training.

Well said.

I do agree, thank you for pointing that out.. I just wasn't thinking about that in the heat of the situation.

I'm glad everything turned out well and that you stopped the threat. And I'm glad that we can hear your experience and learn. As was pointed out earlier, these experiences rarely make it into the gun/crime stats we hear quoted so often.

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

In all honesty, you are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT right! The first rule is to win the fight and live.
He did win and for that, praise God.
My fear is the information coming of out the thread based on if he would shot the guy.
Guys, we need to step back a little and stop making this personal and allow ourselves an honest critiqie of this scenario.
Keep the debate open and honest.

I think there was only 1 person who said he should have shot him ( not going to go back over 35 pages to be sure only 1 ) and he was pretty much called out on it right away and never responded again.

Listen, to jbrooks19 and all of the others I've seemed to **** off.

This got a little more overheated that I expected and I apoligize.

I got caught up way to much in the "what could have happened".

The reason I even got in this thread was because I ended up getting torn apart on Texas law by a defense attorney. Didn't understand before how they can try to deflect a case from a criminal to assissinate the character of a gunowner, but it does happen.

I am glad things ended quickly before they escalated.

I agree, I think the discussion got a little heated because it seems some people were looking at what happened and others were looking at what could have happened. Both should be looked at and discussed but everyone needs to understand which one the poster is talking about before getting butt hurt next time.

IC 35-42-5-1
Robbery
Sec. 1. A person who knowingly or intentionally takes property from another person or from the presence of another person:
(1) by using or threatening the use of force on any person; or
(2) by putting any person in fear;
commits robbery, a Class C felony. However, the offense is a Class B felony if it is committed while armed with a deadly weapon or results in bodily injury to any person other than a defendant, and a Class A felony if it results in serious bodily injury to any person other than a defendant.
IC 35-41-1-11
"Forcible felony"
Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent danger of bodily injury to a human being.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.



I consider a reasonable threat when someone says they are going to hurt me if I don't do what they say or give my possesions to them. This is not my feeling it is what the law says as quoted above "by using or threating to use force or by putting me in fear of that force".

This would be a felony. From there you move to IC 35-41-3-2 also quoted above.

I don't carry a lawyer in my pocket. So I have to study the law as best I can and try to live within those laws. I only have my interpretation and memory of those laws and any training that I have taken. Have you ever forgot something that someone told you? Will you do everything exactly right, no matter how much training you have had? Probably not... So that puts you possibly in court. There will be two attornies there with two completely different ideas and interpretations of your actions as compared to the law. One will win and one will loose. Which one that is is up to the judge and the jury to decide. Even then it will possibly be appealed to a higher court where more judges, lawyers look at the lower courts decision based on the law.

Just because you take a training class it does not gaurantee that you will do it all right, remember it all right in the heat of battle, win in court or live happily ever after. It is the best way to make certain that you are doing everything possible to be right but sometimes people fail.

Read the codes and tell me where I am wrong. Again, if I am proven wrong then I am wrong and I will admit that I am wrong. I am not here to win but I am here to know what is right.

ETA -What do I believe is a "reasonable threat"? If a friend come up behind me and says "give me all your money or I will hurt you". I probably will laugh and probably not even turn around. BUT, if a stranger at a gas station comes up behind me and says that then I can reasonably believe that he means what he is saying. He already made the bold move to come up and say that to a grown man already. Why would I then believe that he does not mean what he says?

And finally- Yes, I do know that "Mute" and "Moot" are two different words with two different meanings. I knew this before I typed the wrong word but in my haste to get ready for work, I mistyped. So please, give it a break I also misspell words all the tyme (see)

Very well put again. We all have a duty to know the laws to the best of our ability especially if we choose to carry. If we don't we are just asking for trouble IMO. But, like someone said we also have to make a judgment call in a split second based on what we know and how we "read or interpret" those laws, and as has been proven in this thread everyone has a little different understanding of them.

 

[HICKMAN]

I think there was only 1 person who said he should have shot him ( not going to go back over 35 pages to be sure only 1 ) and he was pretty much called out on it right away and never responded again.

If he would have charged at me i would have shot him just an FYI the officer told me that i was completely justified in what i did, he is an LEO you are not.

that's an experpt from the OP, but that's what I was going on. You can click the little [>] next to the name to go to the actual post.

I agree, I think the discussion got a little heated because it seems some people were looking at what happened and others were looking at what could have happened.

Yeah... I got wrapped up in the "could have" because the gun was drawn.

I think the one thing we've all learned is... it might be a good idea to attend our resident gun attorney's gun law class.

 

[mydoghasfleas]

OP, imo you handled the situation perfectly.
Only thing I would have done differently was not post your encounter here for everyone to second guess. After reading 16 pages I started to get a headache, so I can only imagine how you felt. Rep inbound

 

[mettle]

OP: You are alive and no one was hurt.
Next time, don't post anything on here. Let that be the real lesson for you. This forum is turning M4Carbine.net and Arph.com with all the 'knowalls' the 'we be professionals'.

Good job with your self control in such a real incident.

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

that's an experpt from the OP, but that's what I was going on. You can click the little [>] next to the name to go to the actual post.

^^ Gotcha, haven't been back to re-read the original post. Was just remembering one person telling him he should have shot him as he turned to run away was what I was referring to. I know it wasn't you, it was someone else.


Yeah... I got wrapped up in the "could have" because the gun was drawn.

I think the one thing we've all learned is... it might be a good idea to attend our resident gun attorney's gun law class.

That I think we can probably all agree on at least most of us.

 

[Hornett]

I voted Did it right but you really should have emptied a magazine into the perp, done a tactical reload, and scanned the area for other threats before you ever got back into your car, since you shouldn't ever take out your gun unless you feel your life is in danger.

 

[Fargo]

There is a LOT of armchair back patting going on which is pointless. It is more useful to discuss the details of the instance and other possibilities of what could have been done, happened, other ramifications, etc,etc. That is called a learning experience. If you wish to get butt hurt when people try to offer points for such discussion because you simply feel the need to be correct in your/his actions then you shouldn't bother posting in an open forum that is dedicated to better educating on proper firearms use.

I believe the point HICKMANN is trying to make is that, YES what you did was justified to you. That doesn't mean it is justified in the eyes of the legal system. I don't care what your area of study is, it doesn't make you an expert, simply a student. The prosecutors would have ripped you a new hole with your actions had there been a scared witness that didn't hear what the robber said, if the officers were being "pushed" to crack down on firearms, if you had to engage, etc,etc. As someone else pointed out, you got lucky here.

You did feel threatened and that is understandable. On the other hand, the legal system and prosecutors will pick apart your actions FAR worse than anyone here is, so where would you rather have your learning experience?

Yeah, like happened in this case in this memorandum released by the prosecutor . I mean, the guy who got shot here had only committed burglary and was reaching his car when he got shot. No visible weapon and no explicit threat.

http://www.dailyjournal.net/ftp/Editorial/reckley-011112.pdf

From the totality of the circumstances, both times Mr. Reckley fired his weapon, he had the reasonable belief that force was
necessary to prevent death, serious bodily injury or the commission of a forcible felony against himself or his wife. Indiana’s
self-defense statute is clear and unequivocal in its directive that “no person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind
whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.”
The filing of any criminal charge and the submission of any matter to the grand jury lies within the sole discretion of the
Prosecuting Attorney. As there is no probable cause to believe that the Reckleys committed any criminal acts during the events of
August 19, 2011, no charges will be filed. Moreover, as the Reckleys were the clear victims of the criminal activity in this matter, the
Sheriff’s request that this case be submitted to a grand jury for consideration of criminal charges against the Reckleys is declined.

If the people elect good prosecutors and judges, you don't have any of the problems you refer to.

Joe

 

[Colts]

If the 110 people who have responded to the poll so far represent a jury of your peers (they should, but unfortunately probably never would), you are 85% correct and that is good enough for me.

Congrats on a successful unfortunate encounter where everyone walked away safe. This seems the best possible outcome (I known the perp could have been thrown in jail, but that is asking for alot and he would be out already anyway and really pissed).

We are probably fortunate the perp did not fall running away or someone might be getting sued?

Thanks for sharing this difficult experience with the Forum (I think it is the purpose we are all here - a chance to think and discuss how one might respond to different situations).

 

[Dirtebiker]

But I WILL say what I would do if this had happened to me....

I would be seeking out a quality professional Force on Force class. I would want to find out personally, from an expert, that what I did was right on, or was I just lucky.
I want to be ready for when it happens again.

OP, do yourself a favor and seek out that training. Even if you was right or wrong, you're still lucky you got out of it without getting hurt. Next time, you may not be so lucky.

What are you talking about? I never said that...

Sorry machine, I was being a bit of a smart ass here! With a crooked way of looking at your statement, it kinda sounds like you would seek out training and affirmation from a professional AFTER the incident.
As stated...... Just being a smart ass! One of my weaknesses!

 

[Dirtebiker]

The Indiana Code cares if it was in a car or not, so yes, it does make a difference.

in the eyes of the law, it definitely DOES......if he was IN his car and got out he was not immediately threatened because, as the law would see it, there is a barrier between him and the attacker.......had the window been broken, under IC he would have been legally justified is shooting not just displaying

I see your point! As long as it was just a verbal threat. Of course, if the guy had a gun in HIS hand, it would be a different situation, right?

And as someone else mentioned before..... I'm not waiting to find out if he's concealing a weapon before I draw mine!!!!

 

[Dirtebiker]

It's cool OP, don't sweat it. I started feeling sorry for you well over 200 posts back. HA! You done good! I--for one--am not going to second guess your actions. You did what your instincts told you to do and you came out alive and DB would-b robber hopefully learned a valuable lesson well in the end.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda's are MOOT (not "mute" BTW) points in hindsight. We carry to protect ourselves and our loved ones and that's exactly what you did.

Have a nice day jbrooks!

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