I can't hit my target--where should my left pinky toe point??!!

[rvb]

...without conscious thought.

so pretty much same as I do everything else in life... Hahah

-rvb

 

[bwframe]

I guess one shot is pretty cool if you are a sniper or hunter...

 

[Coach]

really hoping the grip does not matter crowd will answer today why they would spend time talking about this concept of it does not matter. Where are they spending time on not using a proper grip in practical applications?

 

[Jackson]

I think the purpose of teaching this concept is academic rather than practical. By teaching and demonstrating to students that grip is not a fundamental component of accuracy, but rather a tool to help you achieve accuracy at speed, you are helping to build conceptual knowledge in the student that will become a framework for future problem solving.

If you change a person's grip and it improves their accuracy, but they don't understand that it is improved because they are better able to stroke the trigger straight to the rear without changing point of aim, you have just handed them a fish. Teaching them the fundamental components of accuracy on the lowest level allows them to go and do some of their own fishing.

This is where I see the purpose of the discussion.

 

[rvb]

If you change a person's grip and it improves their accuracy, but they don't understand that it is improved because they are better able to stroke the trigger straight to the rear without changing point of aim,

So this is saying grip does matter.

A propper grip FACILITATES a good trigger press.

Now, can you hit an A zone at 10 yds w/ the gun upside down pulling the trigger w/ your pinky? Sure. Can you hit a target paster 10x in a row? At some point we get into accuracy expectations.

I recently swtiched to a glock after more than a decade competing and training with a different platform. As part of that switch I set a goal to be able to do 10 dryfires in a row ballancing a dime on the frontsite (the factory one). I can tell you that until I found the right grip that facilitated the perfect trigger press, I couldn't do it. I could do one or two, maybe 3 occassionally, but that was it. Once I found the sweet spot, I could do 10x on demand. And it showed at the range, I can hit a paster at 10 yds, usually 8 or 9 of 10 rounds. With some practice, that grip becames engrained in the subconscious (aka muscle memory).

-rvb

 

[Hemingway]

really hoping the grip does not matter crowd will answer today why they would spend time talking about this concept of it does not matter. Where are they spending time on not using a proper grip in practical applications?

I grew tired of this thread, as the Round Earth guys probably got tired of trying to convince the Flat Earth guys they wouldn't sail off the edge.


Again, (and again) no one is saying grip doesn't matter. We are saying that grip doesn't affect accuracy. When you grasp this concept, you cease to tell students to correct their lower left hits, they need a stronger left hand, or they need less trigger or they need a shooting belt capable of rappelling, they don't have enough "Bang 'em All" morale patches, or whatever it is you tell them instead of focusing on their ACTUAL problem, which is recoil anticipation.

Once again, everyone here (Shay, myself, Paul and others) teach a strong grip for retention, speed, moving, controlling recoil, etc. And we correct student's grips for those things (I'm assuming they do, I do). But I don't mislead a student by saying if you'll just squeeze a bit more with your support hand, your round will hit dead center.

Follow it the other way: If you say that grip DOES affect accuracy, then why can you hit dead center with a support hand only shot? Where is the 70/30 ratio in that case? What about if you get your trigger finger shot off in a gunfight--could you no longer hit a target if you shot with your middle finger? What about the middle finger of your support hand? Of course you could.

One way I prove to students that:

1. Their gun doesn't shoot to the side
2. Their grip is good enough
3. Their sights are actually aligned is this:

They hold the gun, aim in on a 1 inch circle from 4 yards. Just so the front sight almost covers the target they are aiming at. I tell them to aim in with whatever grip they are comfortable with and to stay aimed in. I pull the trigger with my finger and the round hits dead center every time.

Their grip hasn't changed (even if it sucked) but the round hit dead center. Change the variable so that the student shoots the gun themselves with an absolute PERFECT grip and they are 4 inches off. Now, diagnose the problem:

a) Grip
b) Less finger
c) More finger
d) Recoil anticipation
e) Unicorn intervention


As Monsieur Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that." I'm tapping out of this discussion. You guys feel free to carry on with it.

And buy Shooting Missology. It will show actual footage of everything I've talked about in this thread.

 

[Jackson]

So this is saying grip does matter.

A propper grip FACILITATES a good trigger press.

Now, can you hit an A zone at 10 yds w/ the gun upside down pulling the trigger w/ your pinky? Sure. Can you hit a target paster 10x in a row? At some point we get into accuracy expectations.

I recently swtiched to a glock after more than a decade competing and training with a different platform. As part of that switch I set a goal to be able to do 10 dryfires in a row ballancing a dime on the frontsite (the factory one). I can tell you that until I found the right grip that facilitated the perfect trigger press, I couldn't do it. I could do one or two, maybe 3 occassionally, but that was it. Once I found the sweet spot, I could do 10x on demand. And it showed at the range, I can hit a paster at 10 yds, usually 8 or 9 of 10 rounds. With some practice, that grip becames engrained in the subconscious (aka muscle memory).

-rvb

I never said that grip wasn't important or that it didn't facilitate good trigger manipulation. In fact, I haven't taken sides in the debate at all. I was just saying I think it is important to understand the why behind the what.

The process you went through to find the right grip for you was surely made easier because of your understanding of the end goal (manipulating the trigger without distrubing the sight alignment.) I think the concept we're discussing is not obvious to the novice shooter and is worth explaining and demonstrating as an academic exercise. In this way, they understand the baseline components of what they are trying to achieve.

 

[bwframe]

I grew tired of this thread, as the Round Earth guys probably got tired of trying to convince the Flat Earth guys they wouldn't sail off the edge.

...they need less trigger or they need a shooting belt capable of rappelling, they don't have enough "Bang 'em All" morale patches, or whatever it is you tell them...

As Monsieur Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that." I'm tapping out of this discussion. You guys feel free to carry on with it.

This was certainly helpful Mr. Yeager. Quite professional!
Any new tats or cool Tshirts?

 

[Hemingway]

This was certainly helpful Mr. Yeager. Quite professional!
Any new tats or cool Tshirts?

Yeager is a fine figure of a man.

Once I get ripped like him, I'll start sporting the Ed Hardy-type shirts.

Once I can shoot and teach like him, I'll create my own videos.

I'm not really into tats, so I'll pass on that.

In the meantime, I'm happy to be a friend and student. If anyone is taking Way of the Pistol in July, we can continue this discussion in the team room.

 

[the1kidd03]

Yeager is a fine figure of a man.

Once I get ripped like him, I'll start sporting the Ed Hardy-type shirts.

Once I can shoot and teach like him, I'll create my own videos.

I'm not really into tats, so I'll pass on that.

In the meantime, I'm happy to be a friend and student. If anyone is taking Way of the Pistol in July, we can continue this discussion in the team room.

I'll pass on the "tuff guy" shirts, but I've got problems with ink

 

[bwframe]

Yeager is a fine figure of a man...

Thanks, that explains a lot!

Where do you instruct Hemingway? Do you have a website, YouTube channel, links to scoring? In other words, do you have any documentation of you abilities? Or, are we just supposed to believe you because you are a Yeager groupie, fanboi, wannabe?

 

[the1kidd03]

Thanks, that explains a lot!

Where do you instruct Hemingway? Do you have a website, YouTube channel, links to scoring? In other words, do you have any documentation of you abilities? Or, are we just supposed to believe you because you are a Yeager groupie, fanboi, wannabe?

Kind of relative information regardless in this industry anyway isn't it? When you can buy patches and crap online, and simply pick up a gun one day pay to take an "instructor certification class" the next day and claim to know whatever you want......there is hardly any true "credibility" in the firearms industry that's anything more than heresay

I mean, one can hold a class but that doesn't mean they know anything worth charging for if they teach less knowledgeable persons. No legit way to verify military training either. Not to mention, one can "instruct" all they wish that doesn't mean they "teach" appropriately or have an understanding of learning theory or how to organize professional training, etc. My point being, it's all relative really so not really a form of credibility IMO

 

[Hemingway]

Thanks, that explains a lot!

Where do you instruct Hemingway? Can't say.

Do you have a website, YouTube channel, links to scoring? No. No. Absolutely not.

In other words, do you have any documentation of you abilities? None whatsoever.

Or, are we just supposed to believe you because you are a Yeager groupie, fanboi, wannabe? Yes. Yes. Absolutely!

What if I could prove that I spent 6 years in what used to be referred to as DEV GRU, that I've led PSD and DA ops on 3 continents and have 8 confirmed kills with my 226 alone? Does that make the truth any more truthful? (Bewilderingly, to many of you it would)

What if I posted that the only training I've ever received was from my Pantaeo subscription in my Mom's basement while rubbing my ample belly with Dorito-stained hands? Does that make the truth any less truthful? Why?

(Neither of the above is true, by the way).

I would think we all could use critical reasoning and evaluate tactics and techniques on their merit alone, not who is or is not spouting them out. That is part of why poor techniques get passed on unnecessarily long. "Well, we HAVE to do it that way, that's how Mr. World-Class does it!" or "That's what the NRA POI states!"

You guys follow whatever you want, you're certainly entitled to your own opinions.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Get rid of the pinky toe.

 

[readlorey]

I want to shoot zombies, but only the slow ones. My skill is not good enough to shoot the fast ones. Yet.

 

[JesseJ]

my grandpa tought me how too shoot and always told me its how you pull the trigger? He was not a marksman or a special forces guy, but has antlers on the wall and several cans with holes in them.

 

[bwframe]

...there is hardly any true "credibility" in the firearms industry that's anything more than heresay
...

Wrong. Although you and apparently Hemingway would like to believe this, you are mistaken. You claim to be an instructor yet cannot back up your words with any sort of proof that what you claim is true.

You and Hemingway could very easily show video, scores, student testimonials, etc. right here on this forum. It is done daily by others who are called upon to back up their words.

...
I would think we all could use critical reasoning and evaluate tactics and techniques on their merit alone...

Blah, blah, blah...

OK then, to sum it up, we are supposed to blindly believe you and your trashing of other's methods on just your say so on an Internet forum?

I am your clientele, one who has proven to spend thousands of $ to better myself through training. You are quite foolish if you think I will allow you even a tiny bit of credibility without backing it up.

 

[the1kidd03]

Wrong. Although you and apparently Hemingway would like to believe this, you are mistaken. You claim to be an instructor yet cannot back up your words with any sort of proof that what you claim is true.

You and Hemingway could very easily show video, scores, student testimonials, etc. right here on this forum. It is done daily by others who are called upon to back up their words.

I could also very easily copy and paste them from anywhere on the internet....how is that credible?
Although, if you'd like to buy me a camera I'd be glad to make videos/training aids.

I claimed to be an "instructor?" Where?

 

[bwframe]

I could also very easily copy and paste them from anywhere on the internet....how is that credible?

Go ahead, see how far that gets you. It's been tried before.

 

[Coach]

I think the purpose of teaching this concept is academic rather than practical. By teaching and demonstrating to students that grip is not a fundamental component of accuracy, but rather a tool to help you achieve accuracy at speed, you are helping to build conceptual knowledge in the student that will become a framework for future problem solving.

If you change a person's grip and it improves their accuracy, but they don't understand that it is improved because they are better able to stroke the trigger straight to the rear without changing point of aim, you have just handed them a fish. Teaching them the fundamental components of accuracy on the lowest level allows them to go and do some of their own fishing.

This is where I see the purpose of the discussion.

I think you are correct about what the value of this discussion is. I have always valued your opinion. At this point I have doubts that anything academic was intended. I think being outrageous and different was more likely the intent. Promotion of a certain line of thinking over all others was a possible motive.

I like discussion, and I am not saying that I have all the solutions. (when in doubt I ask Rhino) I will also not paint all instructors with one stroke of the brush as mediocre because they are not in line with my thinking. Just to make a statement. ( I have heard that this happens on the net)

I do find it odd that someone who claims to be very "practical" and real world got real quiet about this subject when asked when this grip does not matter business was asked to be applied to practical applications. I suppose for the sake of argument that I can say if I am plinking around and getting good hits that the grip is meaningless if I am just shooting one shot. But if my application is practical why would I not teach a good grip at ground level? Even if grip does not matter for one shot accuracy. Who gets training just to plink better? (Let me shamelessly plug my BP100 course if the answer is yes) If an instructor changes a students grip and that puts them on target is that not what the instructor is being paid to do? Does it not equal a win for everyone involved?

If I am going to be a serious competitor or I am going to prevail in a gunfight does the grip matter? (yes) Then why not teach it from the ground level on up? Why waste time and energy posting about grip not mattering?