I can't hit my target--where should my left pinky toe point??!!

[riverman67]

So how often are we going to shoot 1 shot and only one shot?
This does not occur in any defensive scenarios that I am aware of. Shoot them to the ground mentality seems to prevail here and rightly so. Viewing accuracy through this prism it would seem that a grip that allows for quick follow up shots would be very beneficial. The grip to me is the easiest way to either support or detract from good trigger control.A good grip allows the trigger to be manipulated without disturbing the sight picture. A ****ty grip makes it tougher,not impossible.

 

[chefjamescia]

I used to always get my bolts cross threaded, then I realized I was using the wrong brand of box wrench!! Thanks Craftsman!

 

[Coach]

Exactly.

So where does this happen with practical applications?

 

[Shay]

So where does this happen with practical applications?

Well, the best practical application would be if people (especially instructors) would stop telling shooters that they should "work on their grip" if they can't hit their target.

 

[Coach]

Well, the best practical application would be if people (especially instructors) would stop telling shooters that they should "work on their grip" if they can't hit their target.

That is not the question. Which I suspect you knew.
Where is shooting one shot without the ability to shoot a good accurate and a fast follow up shot practical? Because the momment you need that second shot in a hurry grip becomes everything.

 

[Shay]

That is not the question. Which I suspect you knew.
Where is shooting one shot without the ability to shoot a good accurate and a fast follow up shot practical? Because the momment you need that second shot in a hurry grip becomes everything.

Because most marksmanship shooting is either a single shot or a series of single shots strung together.

You should go back and reread this thread; especially the posts where I (and Hemingway) have written repeatedly that grip does in fact matter when you want to drive the gun for faster split times.

 

[bwframe]

Got any score sheets to back this up?

 

[turnandshoot4]

Well I have been attending classes, reading the books, dry firing and watching a lot of video lately. My shooting just keeps getting worse. Maybe this is the reason?

Actually I think it is because of carple tunnel. My hand always aches and my grip is vetting weak.

Are you shooting a .40? I get worse as I shoot if I'm shooting a .40.

 

[ATM]

While grip and stance may not be on the same fundamental level as sight alignment and trigger control, to discount their relevance in marksmanship seems an attempt to oversimplify beyond what is practical or logical.

Will your accuracy suffer if you take your shot while balancing on one foot?
Of course it's possible to make a good shot that way, but you'll have to overcome far more than you would from a stable platform.

Grip may certainly have an effect on trigger control and anticipation issues as well.

If the gun hurts my hand or flies back and breaks some part of my face when I squeeze off that first accurate shot, no amount of perfectly aligned limp-wristing with an unloaded gun at a doorknob is going to keep me accurate when I load it up again. Something else has to change.

Some grips also make it more challenging than others for a given shooter to maintain perfect alignment and perfect trigger press while breaking a shot. Is it possible to overcome these issues without changing grip? Probably ...with a lot of extra practice, but a difference in grip might make it far easier to clear that personal plateau and move forward. One could always return to that problematic grip in their spare time at the range as a trickier or at least less ergonomically favorable method to be conquered.

Trick shooting is all about the difficult but possible. In contrast, most are looking for something more practical from their instructors (and their training investment).
Good practical instruction must go beyond simply distilling everything down to those two particular fundamentals and should actively suggest other fundamentals, tips and insights which will help a student achieve this goal by minimizing the myriad of possible disturbances they are inducing while breaking their shots.

 

[Coach]

Because most marksmanship shooting is either a single shot or a series of single shots strung together.

You should go back and reread this thread; especially the posts where I (and Hemingway) have written repeatedly that grip does in fact matter when you want to drive the gun for faster split times.

I don't need to reread. I know what is here. So for self-defense shooting does grip matter? Does it matter in gun fighting?

 

[Paul Gomez]

I thought this conversation was about the things involved in making a single hit?

If that's what we' re talking about than it does come down to just aligning the sights well enough for the task at hand & disturbing that alignment as little as possible whiilst manipulating the trigger.

If we are talking about more than that, then everything else starts to matter, but to get a single hit you don't need grip, you don't need followthrough, you don't need drawstroke. You only really need half of effective trigger manipulation.

 

[bwframe]

I thought this conversation was about the things involved in making a single hit?

...I'm posting some of the contemporary theories on how to diagnose your shooting problem...

 

[HICKMAN]

who all has been in an actual gun fight?

did you think about your grip or did muscle memory do it's work?

 

[bwframe]

who all has been in an actual gun fight?

If I remember right, you "saved my life" in a gunfight the year before last?
Pretty sure you made multiple connecting shots and your grip was good.

 

[HICKMAN]

heh, think I also need a lawyer at one point as well

 

[rvb]

It's amazing how via a few words on the internet, everyone can say the same thing different ways, then disagree about it....

how I think the cliff notes of this thread would read is:
1) you can connect a single round w/nothing but well executed sight alignment and trigger control.
2) for rapid follow up shots, grip becomes important in returning the sights to target.

I agree with all that.

I'd possibly add "timing" to #2 as well. but rapid multiple shots means managing the recoil. and having the correct mechanical leverage goes a long way in reducing the effort needed to steer the sights back to target.

As for stance, I believe it doesn't matter.
I've made hundreds (thousands?) of successful high-speed hits from aweful stances as part of practical matches. On one leg, falling over, squatting, on tip toes, on knees, on stairs or un-even ground, etc. What a "perfect" stance does for you is establishes your NPA. So in bullseye, a perfect stance helps because there is less muscling of the gun. Or in defensive use it helps index perfectly to the target. But if you are driving the gun (sight alignment) with your vision, none of that matters anyway.

-rvb

 

[Coach]

The folks on here saying grip does not matter are talking about a single shot. What I want to know is where do they teach this and how does it apply to what they teach. I thought they taught self defense with and without a gun. So what has been kicked around does not fit into those situations.

Why would folks make statements about grip and other stuff not mattering when it does matter in practical applications? Seems like some folks just want to stir the pot.

 

[Coach]

who all has been in an actual gun fight?

did you think about your grip or did muscle memory do it's work?

Why does it have to be a gun fight? Who has to think about pressure with a grip? Once the habit is built it is built and you can do it on auto pilot. You won't rise to the occasion you will default to what your capable of doing.

 

[the1kidd03]

who all has been in an actual gun fight?

did you think about your grip or did muscle memory do it's work?

Why does it have to be a gun fight? Who has to think about pressure with a grip? Once the habit is built it is built and you can do it on auto pilot. You won't rise to the occasion you will default to what your capable of doing.

I think Coach's interpretation here is to imply that when presented with a real threat that you "resort" to that which you practice!?!? To which, I would agree for the most part. The purpose of training is to devote the important mechanics to your muscle memory because when the situation arises you do not want to have to think about "what it takes to be accurate." IME, when a threat is relatively close and thus a "real threat" that is the sort of the "last thing" on your mind. Yes, you know you want to be accurate to end the situation and you are trying to be accurate, but that comes second to survival which would include deminishing your presence, utilizing cover, etc. We trained so much that proper grip was not a thought, but rather every time I removed the holstered weapon my grip would be where I need it to be without having to think about it. That's why training extensively, and harshly is so important to devoting the "necessities" to your muscle memory.

 

[David Rose]

Why does it have to be a gun fight? Who has to think about pressure with a grip? Once the habit is built it is built and you can do it on auto pilot. You won't rise to the occasion you will default to what your capable of doing.

I would just add a few words to that last line. You won't rise to the occasion you will default to what you are capable of doing without conscious thought.