I can't hit my target--where should my left pinky toe point??!!

[VERT]

Not sure what training you've gone to or what videos you've watched but bad instruction very rarely produces good results.

If you are confused about what to practice, I would suggest you start with James Yeager's Shooting Missology DVD.

Eliminating the practice of bad techniques is just as important as practicing good techniques.

Stay with it. It isn't rocket science--after all, look at the people in this hobby

I maybe should have used purple for part of my first post. Truth is none of the "correct or appropriate" stances/grip has helped my shooting accuracy. They may have helped with other things but not "accuracy" in and of itself. This basically supports Hemingway's assertion that sight alignment and trigger control are the two most important "fundamentals". Really no surprise there.

My carpel tunnel comment needs no purple. My right hand and fingers hurt. You try not jerking the trigger, and yes I do think it is becoming a problem for me.

I still do not completely discount grip, stance, etc. Because it facilitates comfort and the ability to align the sights and properly press the trigger. I do agree that finding a comfortable way to hold the handgun can vary from person to person.

All of my guns with fixed sights shoot fine for me if I do my part. Only thing that throws me off if that I have to cover the target with the front sight. Not really a problem for a fighting gun but not what I want for punching paper.

I did recently sight in a revolver with those dreaded adjustable sights. I had to push the rear sight pretty far off center to the left. Enough that it has me questioning what I have done. But I was easily hitting a 2" stick and see target dot offhand at 15 yards the other day. That does not seem that bad. Wonder if another INGOer would volunteer to shoot my gun for a while to see if it is me (and my aching hand) or maybe the sights were just off a bit?

 

[blamecharles]

I maybe should have used purple for part of my first post. Truth is none of the "correct or appropriate" stances/grip has helped my shooting accuracy. They may have helped with other things but not "accuracy" in and of itself. This basically supports Hemingway's assertion that sight alignment and trigger control are the two most important "fundamentals". Really no surprise there.

My carpel tunnel comment needs no purple. My right hand and fingers hurt. You try not jerking the trigger, and yes I do think it is becoming a problem for me.

I still do not completely discount grip, stance, etc. Because it facilitates comfort and the ability to align the sights and properly press the trigger. I do agree that finding a comfortable way to hold the handgun can vary from person to person.

All of my guns with fixed sights shoot fine for me if I do my part. Only thing that throws me off if that I have to cover the target with the front sight. Not really a problem for a fighting gun but not what I want for punching paper.

I did recently sight in a revolver with those dreaded adjustable sights. I had to push the rear sight pretty far off center to the left. Enough that it has me questioning what I have done. But I was easily hitting a 2" stick and see target dot offhand at 15 yards the other day. That does not seem that bad. Wonder if another INGOer would volunteer to shoot my gun for a while to see if it is me (and my aching hand) or maybe the sights were just off a bit?

I will be at Atterbury later today if you want to meet up.

 

[Fargo]

My carpel tunnel comment needs no purple. My right hand and fingers hurt. You try not jerking the trigger, and yes I do think it is becoming a problem for me.

I still do not completely discount grip, stance, etc. Because it facilitates comfort and the ability to align the sights and properly press the trigger. I do agree that finding a comfortable way to hold the handgun can vary from person to person.

All of my guns with fixed sights shoot fine for me if I do my part. Only thing that throws me off if that I have to cover the target with the front sight. Not really a problem for a fighting gun but not what I want for punching paper.

I did recently sight in a revolver with those dreaded adjustable sights. I had to push the rear sight pretty far off center to the left. Enough that it has me questioning what I have done. But I was easily hitting a 2" stick and see target dot offhand at 15 yards the other day. That does not seem that bad. Wonder if another INGOer would volunteer to shoot my gun for a while to see if it is me (and my aching hand) or maybe the sights were just off a bit?

I hate to say it, but if every time you pull the trigger it is causing you a good bit of pain, it is going to be difficult for you to keep you body from unconsciously adjusting to try to minimize that pain. Of course, those adjustments usually involve the body anticipating the pain and reacting by tightening muscles before it happens.

It is the same as people who anticipate the "Boom and Pushback", but harder to get around. You get acclimatized to "Boom and Pushback" but getting truly acclimatized to pain is much more difficult.

I hate to say it, but I think your best bet is to do everything you can to get that carpal tunnel fixed; even if it means taking some time off from doing things like shooting anything more than a .22.

Best,

Joe

 

[VERT]

I hate to say it, but I think your best bet is to do everything you can to get that carpal tunnel fixed; even if it means taking some time off from doing things like shooting anything more than a .22.

Best,

Joe

Be easier to just not go to work. Why give up what I like?

 

[Dead Duck]

Crap - I just shot my doorknob.

















I've been shooting for years and have always come to the same conclusion.

My gun shoots better than I do!

 

[Hemingway]

I maybe should have used purple for part of my first post. Truth is none of the "correct or appropriate" stances/grip has helped my shooting accuracy. They may have helped with other things but not "accuracy" in and of itself. This basically supports Hemingway's assertion that sight alignment and trigger control are the two most important "fundamentals". Really no surprise there.

My carpel tunnel comment needs no purple. My right hand and fingers hurt. You try not jerking the trigger, and yes I do think it is becoming a problem for me.

I still do not completely discount grip, stance, etc. Because it facilitates comfort and the ability to align the sights and properly press the trigger. I do agree that finding a comfortable way to hold the handgun can vary from person to person.

All of my guns with fixed sights shoot fine for me if I do my part. Only thing that throws me off if that I have to cover the target with the front sight. Not really a problem for a fighting gun but not what I want for punching paper.

I did recently sight in a revolver with those dreaded adjustable sights. I had to push the rear sight pretty far off center to the left. Enough that it has me questioning what I have done. But I was easily hitting a 2" stick and see target dot offhand at 15 yards the other day. That does not seem that bad. Wonder if another INGOer would volunteer to shoot my gun for a while to see if it is me (and my aching hand) or maybe the sights were just off a bit?

I know shooting. I don't know anything about carpel tunnel.

Until you get it fixed, the goal is just to shoot the best that you can do, given your limitations. VERY, very few of us ever shoot to our potential, regardless of what problems, if any, that we have.

And keep an open choke shotgun by the bed at night, just in case...

 

[VERT]

I know shooting. I don't know anything about carpel tunnel.

Until you get it fixed, the goal is just to shoot the best that you can do, given your limitations. VERY, very few of us ever shoot to our potential, regardless of what problems, if any, that we have.

And keep an open choke shotgun by the bed at night, just in case...

Point of my post was not to focus on my hand but rather to point out that

1) Changing my grip, stance, follow through has not helped my shooting as far as "accuracy".
2) Something that affects my trigger control (my finger not working right) has hurt my shooting.

This basically supports your original post about trigger control. But I still would not discount the importance of the other "fundamentals" if for no other reason then they they facilitate good sight alignment and trigger control.

 

[MangoTango]

My issue is trigger control and anticipating the shot. Both are issues I am working on. To me it seems that trigger control is of upmost importance.

 

[mr.steve]

My issue is trigger control and anticipating the shot. Both are issues I am working on. To me it seems that trigger control is of upmost importance.

That's me as well. I find practicing with two targets spaced apart helps me focus on the shot mechanics. I still find myself flinching though.

 

[rhino]

(Later, I'll explain how it's all horse-puckey that's regurgitated from one mediocre firearms instructor to the next. And explains why many students just stay in one frustrated plateau for their entire life.)

Really? Like that clearly mediocre fellow Louis Awerbuck?

 

[Hemingway]

Really? Like that clearly mediocre fellow Louis Awerbuck?

I've never heard Louis say that, and I'm pretty sure that guy is squared away enough to realize that grip doesn't affect accuracy.



You guys have to understand, no one here is saying grip isn't important. It is VERY important. I teach a strong, thumbs forward grip. Travis Haley has a good description of what grip does--it provides an "abuttment" to the recoil of the gun, in his words. That's a perfect description.

But, even FBI agents and INGO members should be intelligent enough to catch the order of things there: that if "recoil" is happening, the shot has already left the barrel and has hit whatever it was going to hit. The best grip in the world doesn't change that fact.

My point is that you can tell your students that grip is vital for recoil management, for speed, for faster 2nd shot acquisition, for retention to keep the gun from being taken by others, or to keep from dropping it while running, but you confuse the student by giving them bad information if you tell them that to improve your accuracy, you have to improve your grip. One thing's got nothing to do with the other.

You guys will go ahead and teach what you want and I'm not trying to change that. I'm not trying to recruit followers here, I'm just speaking truth.

Hopefully this will be of some help to the frustrated shooter who keeps tightening his grip over and over and keeps focusing on all the thousands of machinations that go into a grip and he still is hitting low left. He may think, "I can't get my grip any better--it's perfect--WHAT am I doing wrong??!!!" If you're in that boat, I suggest you try to get over your recoil anticipation and not worry so much about your grip. You might just be surprised at your improvement.


Anyone see the new NRA American Rifleman? I got mine yesterday. They interviewed two winners from Top Shot and asked (among other things) what's the best tip to give people out there? Guess what the answer was: Hint, neither one mentioned grip or stance.

 

[rhino]

I've never heard Louis say that, and I'm pretty sure that guy is squared away enough to realize that grip doesn't affect accuracy.

Actually, I was referring to the charts (which seemed to be what your comment was about). He's distributed similar charts (that he wrote with his own script) to several of the classes in which I've been a student.

I can't agree with an absolute statement that "grip doesn't affect accuracy." It's possible to make an accurate shot with any kind of grip, but to say that grip doesn't affect accuracy, which implies at all, is going way too far.

Clearly the fundamentals of making an accurate shot are aligning the gun with the target, then releasing the shot without disturbing the alignment of the gun. How that is accomplished can take many forms, some of which are more efficient than others. The techniques used to assist someone in maintaining the alignment of the while pressing the trigger to the rear without disturbing the alignment include, among other things, grip.

 

[jdhaines]

Actually, I was referring to the charts (which seemed to be what your comment was about). He's distributed similar charts (that he wrote with his own script) to several of the classes in which I've been a student.

I can't agree with an absolute statement that "grip doesn't affect accuracy." It's possible to make an accurate shot with any kind of grip, but to say that grip doesn't affect accuracy, which implies at all, is going way too far.

Clearly the fundamentals of making an accurate shot are aligning the gun with the target, then releasing the shot without disturbing the alignment of the gun. How that is accomplished can take many forms, some of which are more efficient than others. The techniques used to assist someone in maintaining the alignment of the while pressing the trigger to the rear without disturbing the alignment include, among other things, grip.

Seems like this is covered in the doorknob experiment. If your grip is such that it allows you to press the trigger all the way to the rear breaking the shot then your grip is sufficient to make a single accurate shot. End of the problem. Efficiency, quality of grip, etc only have to do with follow up shots...like Hemmingway discussed earlier. If you try to pull the trigger to the rear aiming at the doorknob, and your sights move, then you have more work to do on trigger control.

I would further propose that everyone who doesn't have some sort of issue with their wrist or forearm muscles (elderly, medical condition, etc) has enough strength that lack of grip isn't the thing that is moving their sights...it's their trigger control. If someone is holding the gun tight enough that you can't knock it out of their hands with a swipe, they have enough strength to develop good trigger control for single accurate shots.

 

[bwframe]

Silly questions.

If grip does not matter;
Why do people shoot the best using both hands?
Why don't we shoot as well with the weak hand?
Why wouldn't everyone dual wield two handguns as a routine? (if anyone is running classes on this, please sign me up!)

 

[VERT]

Silly questions.

If grip does not matter;
Why do people shoot the best using both hands?
Why don't we shoot as well with the weak hand?
Why wouldn't everyone dual wield two handguns as a routine? (if anyone is running classes on this, please sign me up!)

Because two hands allow a person to be steady. This will allow good sight alignment and trigger control. Ever watch a bullseye shooter shoot one handed? Some of those guys/gals are quite "accurate". Maybe not always fast or practical.

I have trouble with my weak hand because of eye dominance and dexterity. If a person is right handed and left eye dominate a common recommendation might be to try shooting left handed. As far as dexterity, why is it difficult for a right handed person to write with their left hand? It isn't the grip it is the fine motor skills they lack.

Why not dual wield pistols?

I think what Hemingway is saying is right from a certain perspective. People worry way to much about grip and stance. If the sights are lined up and the trigger breaks cleanly then that is where the bullet is going. I have come to believe that people need to find a position that is comfortable.

Look at Rhino's post above. I think he sums up the discussion well. Grip, stance, follow through, natural alignment all facilitate technique that allows that trigger to break.

 

[togden812]

As a new handgun owner, and not shooting one for over 7 years, I look forward to trying these tips out this weekend.

 

[VERT]

As a new handgun owner, and not shooting one for over 7 years, I look forward to trying these tips out this weekend.

What Tips? Dual Wielding

Yes I highly recommend doing that.

 

[Shay]

This guy's stance and grip are all screwed up:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlMz2sCDCA4[/ame]

He needs 5% more pressure with his non-dominant foot...

Don't make marksmanship more complicated than it needs to be.

Align your sights and press your trigger without screwing up those sights.

You CAN do that one handed. You CAN do it cup-and-saucer. You CAN do it with the gun upside down pulling the trigger with your pinky. Apparently you can even do it with your feet.

Why? Because you are applying the fundamentals.

Grip and stance are not fundamentals of marksmanship.

 

[Hemingway]

This guy's stance and grip are all screwed up:

Well, in that guy's case, his grip IS his stance.

 

[bwframe]

This guy's stance and grip are all screwed up...

I totally agree that stance is not important.
However, if that man is not gripping the gun with his feet, shooting it is impossible, much less accurately.