How far back does screwing Vets go in the US? All the way to the beginning.

[Birds Away]

Speaking as a veteran, I have to wonder why it is that our troops are having so much trouble with PTSD - especially why we're having so many suicides. Is it because of the constant combat? My father's generation produced infantrymen who fought continuously for years after Normandy, came home after the war and went back to their lives. Many of them lived with their memories of war and did not talk about them to their families (one way of "de-stressing" a situation). Yes, there were cases of "combat fatigue", but not nearly as many, in comparison, as what we appear to be suffering today. Is it multiple deployments? Seems to me that the majority of PTSD is occurring in enlisted and junior NCOs (a conjecture I've taken from training films and documentaries). So is our younger generation of soldiers lacking something in their makeup that makes them more vulnerable to the psychoses that make suicide seem inviting, or is it easy access to ameliorative drugs which, once taken, cumulatively lead further down the road into suicidal depression? I really don't know, but what I think I DO know is that my grandfather's generation dealt with the horrors of mass deaths and destruction in WWI without collapsing into suicidal depression; my father's generation managed to get through WWII largely intact; most Vietnam veterans went on to live productive lives, although there were more widely publicized instances of veterans being unable to cope with their experiences. And now, although we have admittedly been at war for over 10 years, it hasn't been continuous for our troops; it hasn't been any more traumatizing in terms of casualties taken than other conflicts, yet we have a wave of suicides of troops (although the rate of suicides among our troops isn't higher than the civilian average). The only place I've heard of where waves of suicides would take place is in the French Foreign Legion, and that was attributed to troops not getting enough combat.

Now I'm not drawing any particular conclusions nor making any inferences about this phenomenon, but it does seem strange to me that it should be happening and I can't help but wonder what are the particular circumstances which are causing it to occur.

The people of the "greatest generation" were raised during the depression and I would think that their expectations were much lower. Life had taught them that hardship was just part of the deal and also that individual life had no guarantees. Children now, and this includes my generation, have not for the most part suffered anything close to those kind of conditions and their expectations of life are much different. I know that is not the whole answer but I think it certainly plays a part. I know my father never took anything for granted and seemed to have a different value system then my brother and I. He passed it along to some extent but I think that a lot is lost in translation to those who have not experienced such deprivations.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Good questions, I do not know the answers but it certainly is sad. I hate that it is happening.

1) A more rural society that was more used to death. Farm boys grow up around death, hunting, slaughtering, etc. City boys and moderns are taught that killing is wrong and not given a context. Most city youngsters have never seen death except on TV, behind glass, or prettied up by the funeral home. Then when they are in a war, they are told killing is ok, then once they return killing is wrong again. Intellectually we understand that, but internally it causes a friction. They are not acclimated in steps, they go from no death to constant death, often in twisted and horrible ways.

2) Multiple deployments over a shorter length of time. Piling damage on to damage, plus you never know if your last deployment was your last deployment, so even stateside you're waiting for that shoe to drop sending you back.

3) Arguably, the changing nature of the battlefield. It is no longer great periods of stress and then periods of relative safety. With IEDs, suicide bombers, green on green violence, etc. there is never a time you can just relax. While the roller coaster may not go as high, it stays higher on average, so to speak. Combine with the stress of #2.

4) Better diagnostics, less social stigma, and recognized treatments. How many of the old timer vets are alcoholics, have rage issues, are homeless because they can't hold a job, etc? Why? We failed them in that we didn't recognize the problems, and now because we failed them we simply deny they had problems.

 

[rambone]

On a side note, its interesting to see military tanks breaking up a protest of WWI vets. I guess the crys about MRAPS heralding a police state aren't grounded in history, either. Full fledged tanks apparently didn't raise an eyebrow back in the day.

I don't follow your logic. You're pointing out an instance (one of many instances) where the government turned its weapons directly against the people. This is evidence against a police state? And this is supposed to make people more comfortable with MRAPs?

 

[rambone]

Stewart wanted to demonstrate how screwing veterans was bipartisan. Yet somehow half of his presentation was about Ronald Reagan. Even Agent Orange became a Reagan thing. I felt like he damaged his own point.

He also skipped the ultimate military screwjob: the draft.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Good questions, I do not know the answers but it certainly is sad. I hate that it is happening.

Me, too. The only guy in my flight school class who died in Vietnam (to my knowledge, anyway) was suicidal before he went over there (due to a really screwed up marriage) and told me at graduation he didn't plan to come back. We also had a guy who had prior service (USMC) in Vietnam who eventually got grounded because he was losing weight and the docs couldn't figure out why. HIS symptoms seem eerily like what some folks are suffering who have been diagnosed with PTSD - but we didn't HAVE "PTSD" in the '70s, of course.

I do know that some Active Duty guys had four or five tours in Iraq and Afghanistan in 2006 and were in the pipeline for several more tours, but the senior Sergeants and the Commissioned Officers seemed to be coping, from what I could tell; it was the relatively young troops that seemed to be suffering the most, and I've heard it was the "Fobbits" (what in earlier times we called "REMFs") who seemed to suffer more than door-kickers. I have no idea if that is true, but it IS disturbing.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

The people of the "greatest generation" were raised during the depression and I would think that their expectations were much lower. Life had taught them that hardship was just part of the deal and also that individual life had no guarantees. Children now, and this includes my generation, have not for the most part suffered anything close to those kind of conditions and their expectations of life are much different. I know that is not the whole answer but I think it certainly plays a part. I know my father never took anything for granted and seemed to have a different value system then my brother and I. He passed it along to some extent but I think that a lot is lost in translation to those who have not experienced such deprivations.

There may be something in that. My grandfather was a combat veteran (artillery) while my dad was a supply sergeant in a medical unit and my father-in-law was a supply sergeant in a transportation company, so I really don't have any good baseline to judge by. I know that many of my contemporaries made it through Vietnam and all its uncertainties (but of course we have all sorts of stories about how lives were screwed up, mostly because it became an unpopular war) and I've also had contemporaries who were veterans of Panama, Grenada, and Gulf Wars I & II. As I think about it, there may be more similarities between Vietnam and Gulf War II because they are largely "guerrilla" actions, pitting conventional troops against irregulars with all the uncertainties and strain that come with such a combat situation.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

1) A more rural society that was more used to death. Farm boys grow up around death, hunting, slaughtering, etc. City boys and moderns are taught that killing is wrong and not given a context. Most city youngsters have never seen death except on TV, behind glass, or prettied up by the funeral home. Then when they are in a war, they are told killing is ok, then once they return killing is wrong again. Intellectually we understand that, but internally it causes a friction. They are not acclimated in steps, they go from no death to constant death, often in twisted and horrible ways.

2) Multiple deployments over a shorter length of time. Piling damage on to damage, plus you never know if your last deployment was your last deployment, so even stateside you're waiting for that shoe to drop sending you back.

3) Arguably, the changing nature of the battlefield. It is no longer great periods of stress and then periods of relative safety. With IEDs, suicide bombers, green on green violence, etc. there is never a time you can just relax. While the roller coaster may not go as high, it stays higher on average, so to speak. Combine with the stress of #2.

4) Better diagnostics, less social stigma, and recognized treatments. How many of the old timer vets are alcoholics, have rage issues, are homeless because they can't hold a job, etc? Why? We failed them in that we didn't recognize the problems, and now because we failed them we simply deny they had problems.

I'm thinking there is probably quite a bit of truth in your observations, although I'm not sure you're completely correct.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

1) "Because other countries do it" is meaningless and has no place in our discussion.
2) Its about a lot more than healthcare, and in no way can be squarely laid on "single payer healthcare". While healthcare is one aspect of the screwing that's getting all the press at the moment, ridiculously long waits for disability claims, inefficient and lost paperwork, reneging on promised benefits, its a lot more than just the VA hospitals.
3) You can be the best doctor in the world, if your patient load is too high, you won't be the best doctor in the world any more.

Whatever, just let the politicians slap a flag pin on their lapel and call it a day for patriotism. Just stop lying to people that we honor our veterans, when that's obviously not the case. Just once have the guts to get on television or in front of Congress and admit its just propaganda BS so we can say "hoorah for our side" for political points and keep the youngsters enlisting so we can break them and forget about them, too. Even better, let's blame them for being broken. Suffering from Agent Orange related issues, you were a liar trying to scam the system for decades until most of them died off. Gulf War Syndrome? Liars. PTSD? Weaklings. Your WWII forefathers didn't have PTSD. Except, you know, they totally did, we just didn't recognize and treat it as such. Oh, and of course we didn't deploy the same guys 4 times in 6 years, but again, whatever.

Forgotten Lunatics of the Great War: Peter Barham: 9780300125115: Amazon.com: Books if anyone is interested in WW1 vets who didn't have PTSD because it wasn't a thing yet.

Sorry, I've got to disagree with you on a couple points: 1) That we have a Department of Veterans Affairs speaks to our national will to honor our veterans and provide them with care. In that respect, comparing what we're ATTEMPTING to do against what other countries ARE doing or traditionally HAVE DONE is valid, which was my point.

2) Ridiculously long waits for disability claims (bureaucracy), inefficient and lost paperwork (bureaucracy), reneging on promised benefits (bureaucracy again) IS the hallmark of single-payer healthcare, as well as long waits to get into the system and long waits for diagnosis and treatment. It's what happens when healthcare is rationed - for whatever reason - and it's faceless bureaucrats who make critical decisions about individuals' healthcare instead of the patient and his doctor.

3) While overworked doctors won't be able to provide the best health care, BAD doctors (and nurse practictioners ) DON'T provide good health care and the VA system doesn't weed them out. I can give you a whole laundry list of horror stories among the various members of the two medical holding companies, including my own, in which I was assigned in 2005/2006.

While your apparent bitterness toward politicians is valid, I think at least some of your conclusions are wrong and I'll leave it at that.

 

[poptab]

Other things accepted back in the day:

1935 National Firearms Act
Social Security
The Confiscation of Gold
The New Deal
The Founding of the Federal Reserve
The KKK (varies depending upon region)
The Red Scare and McCarthyism

Don't forget eugenics!

Gee whiz it sure was great back then

 

[Fred78]

Check out Gen Washington's plea to congress for food and medicine if you want to know how far back ****ting on the troops go.

 

[indiucky]

Speaking as a veteran, I have to wonder why it is that our troops are having so much trouble with PTSD - especially why we're having so many suicides. Is it because of the constant combat? My father's generation produced infantrymen who fought continuously for years after Normandy, came home after the war and went back to their lives. Many of them lived with their memories of war and did not talk about them to their families (one way of "de-stressing" a situation). Yes, there were cases of "combat fatigue", but not nearly as many, in comparison, as what we appear to be suffering today. Is it multiple deployments? Seems to me that the majority of PTSD is occurring in enlisted and junior NCOs (a conjecture I've taken from training films and documentaries). So is our younger generation of soldiers lacking something in their makeup that makes them more vulnerable to the psychoses that make suicide seem inviting, or is it easy access to ameliorative drugs which, once taken, cumulatively lead further down the road into suicidal depression? I really don't know, but what I think I DO know is that my grandfather's generation dealt with the horrors of mass deaths and destruction in WWI without collapsing into suicidal depression; my father's generation managed to get through WWII largely intact; most Vietnam veterans went on to live productive lives, although there were more widely publicized instances of veterans being unable to cope with their experiences. And now, although we have admittedly been at war for over 10 years, it hasn't been continuous for our troops; it hasn't been any more traumatizing in terms of casualties taken than other conflicts, yet we have a wave of suicides of troops (although the rate of suicides among our troops isn't higher than the civilian average). The only place I've heard of where waves of suicides would take place is in the French Foreign Legion, and that was attributed to troops not getting enough combat.

Now I'm not drawing any particular conclusions nor making any inferences about this phenomenon, but it does seem strange to me that it should be happening and I can't help but wonder what are the particular circumstances which are causing it to occur.

I was watching a documentary on Wake Island and three of the veterans were on Wake Island telling their story...They ended up POW's, two of them escaped to China (one had a picture of himself posing with Mao Tse Tung. Mao heard the escaped POW's were on this train and stopped the train to get a pic for "propaganda I guess" said the vet.) Anyway the one veteran who was a POW for four years was talking about their liberation after the years of torture, starvation, and insanity he had been through....He said he remembers a young Red Cross nurse coming up and giving him a cigarette and a cup of coffee..He then chuckled and said, "And thus ended my treatment for PTSD.." The other two vets with him kind of looked at him and chuckled as well...

I am not a veteran but it did seem these guys where sharing an "inside joke" that only their generation was in on...

IMHO ofcourse...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Sorry, I've got to disagree with you on a couple points: 1) That we have a Department of Veterans Affairs speaks to our national will to honor our veterans and provide them with care. In that respect, comparing what we're ATTEMPTING to do against what other countries ARE doing or traditionally HAVE DONE is valid, which was my point.

2) Ridiculously long waits for disability claims (bureaucracy), inefficient and lost paperwork (bureaucracy), reneging on promised benefits (bureaucracy again) IS the hallmark of single-payer healthcare, as well as long waits to get into the system and long waits for diagnosis and treatment. It's what happens when healthcare is rationed - for whatever reason - and it's faceless bureaucrats who make critical decisions about individuals' healthcare instead of the patient and his doctor.

3) While overworked doctors won't be able to provide the best health care, BAD doctors (and nurse practictioners ) DON'T provide good health care and the VA system doesn't weed them out. I can give you a whole laundry list of horror stories among the various members of the two medical holding companies, including my own, in which I was assigned in 2005/2006.

While your apparent bitterness toward politicians is valid, I think at least some of your conclusions are wrong and I'll leave it at that.

And my point is the system is still jacked up. If I really, really, really try hard to build you a house that doesn't fall down on your head...but it does anyway, at least you have the knowledge I wanted you to have a safe house. I'll attempt to fix that over the next several decades or centuries, but it keeps falling down. I'm really really trying, though.

My other point is it goes beyond healthcare. Disability claims =/= single payer healthcare. Reneging on education benefits =/= single payer healthcare. I know, you want to tie it to Obamacare and draw some conclusions about how a single payer government ran health care program is somehow the exact same as a mandatory insurance plan for private healthcare. It isn't. This isn't about Obamacare, its not a problem you can lay at the feet of the "other party" while claiming your guys have clean hands. No, its just as (banned word) under either party, and finger pointing and lip service is all that ever gets done by either party on the matter.

 

[1775usmarine]

[video=youtube;ZsRDr3miUyc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsRDr3miUyc[/video]

 

[Blackhawk2001]

BehindBlueIs, in some ways we're talking past one another, but I'll address your latest comment. Besides my point that VA care exemplifies, in practical terms, all the problems we can expect to see under the Affordable Care Act, which I believe I've explained adequately, the fact that "government" is attempting to address the needs of millions of veterans - and doing it so poorly - is indicative of the fact that government bureaucracies should be entrusted with as little responsibility and - especially - authority in our lives as possible; bureaucracies, like other living organisms, are not inclined to put others' needs above what they perceive to be _their_ needs. ANY government bureaucracy will be less efficient and less responsive to the citizenry it purports to serve the larger the bureaucracy grows.

It doesn't help that a million new patients have been attempting to access the system due to the difficulties of the past three wars and the change of emphasis (other than lip service) on the military and their care during the past three Presidential Administrations. No doubt some of the issues involved are budgetary (I know that the military changed the requirements and benefits for military retirement twice during my 39 years of service) and I have no doubt that the monumental screwups in administering educational benefits are annoying-to-devastating, but again - bureaucracy at work.

"Put not your faith in Princes" someone once said. The same can be said for government bureaucracies.

 

[smokingman]

Speaking as a veteran, I have to wonder why it is that our troops are having so much trouble with PTSD - especially why we're having so many suicides. Is it because of the constant combat? My father's generation produced infantrymen who fought continuously for years after Normandy, came home after the war and went back to their lives. Many of them lived with their memories of war and did not talk about them to their families (one way of "de-stressing" a situation). Yes, there were cases of "combat fatigue", but not nearly as many, in comparison, as what we appear to be suffering today. Is it multiple deployments? Seems to me that the majority of PTSD is occurring in enlisted and junior NCOs (a conjecture I've taken from training films and documentaries). So is our younger generation of soldiers lacking something in their makeup that makes them more vulnerable to the psychoses that make suicide seem inviting, or is it easy access to ameliorative drugs which, once taken, cumulatively lead further down the road into suicidal depression? I really don't know, but what I think I DO know is that my grandfather's generation dealt with the horrors of mass deaths and destruction in WWI without collapsing into suicidal depression; my father's generation managed to get through WWII largely intact; most Vietnam veterans went on to live productive lives, although there were more widely publicized instances of veterans being unable to cope with their experiences. And now, although we have admittedly been at war for over 10 years, it hasn't been continuous for our troops; it hasn't been any more traumatizing in terms of casualties taken than other conflicts, yet we have a wave of suicides of troops (although the rate of suicides among our troops isn't higher than the civilian average). The only place I've heard of where waves of suicides would take place is in the French Foreign Legion, and that was attributed to troops not getting enough combat.

Now I'm not drawing any particular conclusions nor making any inferences about this phenomenon, but it does seem strange to me that it should be happening and I can't help but wonder what are the particular circumstances which are causing it to occur.

Notice anything about those earlier wars?They all ended.They had a clear point at which victory was achieved and the war was over.Congratulations,parades,victory parties,and most everyone was sent home.The USA was involved in world war 2 for 3 years, 7 months ,and 27 days.Vietnam was different,and as you stated some veterans did not handle it as well.Our current war is beyond the length of time of any war almost in history,and the results on men are pretty clear.Even the Napoleonic wars where shorter(and that was actually more than one war).I think the length and type of war we are fighting are the main cause of the problems we see in men returning from combat.How can you ask men to fight and die in a war that they will never be allowed to win?

During world war two we had an enemy army to defeat.Now the war is more about maintaining our global influence than over coming an enemy,and by the very nature of it there is no end.

I know men who have been in and out of active combat for over 10 years,or more than double the time it took us to win world war 2 with no end in sight of combat deployments.

USA Today article on deployments,and how soldiers on their 4-5 combat deployments are denied requests for non combat deployments due to lack of personnel.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/military/2010-01-12-four-army-war-tours_N.htm

Some of our soldiers in Afghanistan are on combat tours 10+.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45066961/ns/us_news-life/t/us-soldier-killed-th-deployment-war-zone/
A soldier who was killed in a bomb explosion last week in Afghanistan was on his 14th combat deployment — including four tours in Iraq and 10 in Afghanistan.

Here is a more personal example.
http://livinglegendteam.blogspot.com/2012/01/army-staff-sgt-jonathan-m-metzger.html
He served eight years in the Marines and was honorable discharged in 2005(most of that in Iraq).I worked with him after his discharge.He felt like he needed to go back,like the job was not done.He was a bright great guy.He also wanted to make the military his career,though during his year off he was a personal trainer and worked at Eli Lilly's.One day he let us know he had decided to go back and signed up for the national guard.After another 6 years in and out of active combat he did not make it home.Almost 14 years in and out of active combat with a one year break,no generation in America has had to endure that much war and we are not done yet.You want to know why so many soldiers crack when they get home?The have spent 10+ years of their life in combat,no other generation comes close to the amount of time spent in combat than our guys serving right now.