Holstered AIWB discharge caught on video

[JettaKnight]

Why do we get several reports of “holstered” striker fired safe pistols experiencing ND’s?

You answered your own question.

Nice deflection, but it still doesn't answer the question. Can't you just admit that striker fired guns w/o any other forms of safeties besides a long trigger pull carry a higher risk? Every time an ND comes up, there's a whole host of comments like, "That guy is a dumbass!" as if to say, "it can happen to that guy, but not to me, because I'm not a dumbass." Who knows, maybe this guy made those same comments in the past. I'm not excusing him, but I'm also not going to be so quick to condemn, because doing so let's my guard down. ND's happen to well trained folks, so I better be extra cautious so it doesn't happen to me. Pretending I'm immune won't make me any safer. I also better realize that some guns I carry have a greater risk. That's a risk I'm willing to acknowledge and accept. Furthermore, AIWB may not be more prone to ND, but the consequences of one are more severe - your twig and berries, your choice. Admit the risk exist, and accept it if you so choose.


And why isn't anyone asking the real question, "Why was this guy coonfingering his gun to begin with?"


I typically insert my pistol into it's holster before putting the holster into my pants, thus avoiding the shirt tail problem.

 

[phylodog]

Can't you just admit that striker fired guns w/o any other forms of safeties besides a long trigger pull carry a higher risk?

Not that you're asking me but as an advocate for such firearms I'll readily admit to them potentially carrying a higher risk. That is not the same as them being unsafe which is typically where the conversation leads.

If I'm not carrying on my ankle I'm carrying AIWB and have been for years. My body type and the manner in which I dress does not allow for even decent concealment anywhere else on the waist and if I can't conceal it I'm not wearing it. When I do get dressed I always have the pistol in the holster while doing so. I do not like and make every effort to avoid holstering a loaded pistol into an AIWB holster while wearing it. If I were taking a class or shooting a competition requiring concealed carry I wouldn't do it from the AIWB position. I don't disagree that it can cause issues if done improperly but those risks can be mitigated and the benefits (to me) far outweigh the potential consequences due to how I approach things.

 

[Dead Duck]

Mine is safe.

 

[JettaKnight]

Not that you're asking me but as an advocate for such firearms I'll readily admit to them potentially carrying a higher risk. That is not the same as them being unsafe which is typically where the conversation leads.

If I'm not carrying on my ankle I'm carrying AIWB and have been for years. My body type and the manner in which I dress does not allow for even decent concealment anywhere else on the waist and if I can't conceal it I'm not wearing it. When I do get dressed I always have the pistol in the holster while doing so. I do not like and make every effort to avoid holstering a loaded pistol into an AIWB holster while wearing it. If I were taking a class or shooting a competition requiring concealed carry I wouldn't do it from the AIWB position. I don't disagree that it can cause issues if done improperly but those risks can be mitigated and the benefits (to me) far outweigh the potential consequences due to how I approach things.

Quality, honest post, right there.

The only thing I might say is that "unsafe" is a sliding scale, and subjective. Maybe Kirk "Eet ain't low-dead" Freeman would say, "Eez gon, eez not safe". I guess if you start there, then you can't argue that that one method of carry is safe and one method is dumb. Of course, Uncle Mike's and newspaper excluded from the conversation...

 

[hpclayto]

This seems like a lot of conversation for a simple thing. Make sure your clothes, drawstrings and anything else is free from your gat holder before you put it back in, regardless of your carry position. It’s really not that hard.

 

[JettaKnight]

This seems like a lot of conversation for a simple thing. Make sure your clothes, drawstrings and anything else is free from your gat holder before you put it back in, regardless of your carry position. It’s really not that hard.

I take issue with that. In the video we see the man making a reasonable effort to do just that - so maybe it is hard, and we should be thinking it's hard, and be putting a lot of effort and concentration on doing it right. The right mindest is key to survival (as in almost everything in life).

Complacency is the enemy, and easy is the friend of complacency; hard is the friend of diligence, and diligence is the friend of safety.

 

[T.Lex]

I take issue with that. In the video we see the man making a reasonable effort to do just that - so maybe it is hard, and we should be thinking it's hard, and be putting a lot of effort and concentration on doing it right. Complacency is the enemy, and easy is the friend of complacency.

I thought they were cousins? I mean, you can be friends with your cousins, so it isn't mutually exclusive, but it gets weird when the tequila makes an appearance.

 

[JettaKnight]

I thought they were cousins? I mean, you can be friends with your cousins, so it isn't mutually exclusive, but it gets weird when the tequila makes an appearance.

Come'on man, I just pulled that out of the air in 30 seconds, cut me slack.

I'll head over the genealogy dept. on my way home from work and do some research.

 

[T.Lex]

Come'on man, I just pulled that out of the air in 30 seconds, cut me slack.

I'll head over the genealogy dept. on my way home from work and do some research.

Dude.

Rhetorically, I love your edit.

But, from a genealogy perspective, it looks confusing as... as... a really confusing family tree.

 

[Dead Duck]

You guys are funny.
What's wrong with doing your cousin anyway? I did mine all the time, and that's before I was told you're not supposed to. Years later I found out she was adopted but still.
What's wrong with doing your cousin again?

 

[T.Lex]

You guys are funny.
What's wrong with doing your cousin anyway? I did mine all the time, and that's before I was told you're not supposed to. Years later I found out she was adopted but still.
What's wrong with doing your cousin again?

 

[Hohn]

It's one of those things you can do right 50,000 times and do wrong once and it's going to suck. Appendix ups the odds, as you're more likely to be pointing at something that can kill you. I've yet to see a fatality from a strong side carry gun, can't say the same for appendix. Lighter triggers give you less margin of error. The combination can obviously be done, but is very intolerant of mistakes.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on an aftermarket trigger. One that's a bit wider. When he bends over, his abdomen puts pressure on the grip of the gun pushing down on it, the trigger sticks on the inside of the holster were it's not molded for the extra width, trigger stops moving, gun doesn't, bang.

T-shirt doesn't make sense, his undershirt is tucked in and he looks the gun into the holster, I don't see any way enough cloth could get in to reach the trigger. Bending over forward would also make the undershirt more slack in the front, not taunt. Top shirt is obviously not in holster. Perhaps a foreign object in the holster that he didn't see, but since he did look the gun in I'm going to go with modified gun as my most likely scenario.

This guy thinks like a detective. Have you considered a career in law enforcement?

 

[rhino]

Politely, I'd like to challenge that assertion, in reverse order.

I'll concede the competition part. Except, if I did that, I don't think I'd go IWB. Rather, I'd use an OWB option where I can watch it all the way in. I don't compete (although it is on my bucket list) - how many people go IWB, or what percentage? I'm genuinely curious now.

It depends on the specific sport. IWB is less common in USPSA and Steel Challenge, but very common in IDPA. Some people choose to compete with their actual carry gear, so IWB is it for them. Appendix carry is not allowed in IDPA (for arbitrary reasons that did not include safety concerns), but it is allowed in several of the USPSA and Steel Challenge Divisions. I almost always use concealment and AIWB holster for both USPSA and Steel Challenge, neither of which enhance one's chances of winning, but they do allow one to practice with their carry gear. In my case, the matches are my practice.

There is a very good USPSA shooter (M Limited) named Gabe White who specifically competes with a Glock in an AIWB and concealment.

Training, I'm still a bit confused by this. It seems to me that IWB would not be ideal and OWB would be appropriate. Even if you are supposed to carry as if you were in the "real world," then how often will we have to quickly re-holster? That is, if it is a real world scenario, isn't the emphasis on the draw, shooting, and reloading under pressure? Why would there be a need to re-holster without the corresponding time/opportunity to take the holster out?

Based on your question, is it safe to assume that you have limited experience in formal handgun training? If so, you should know that in a one day class, you may draw and reholster dozens if not hundreds of time. No one is encouraged to "quickly re-holster," but I suspect that "quickly" means different things to different people. Taking your time to safely return your gun to the holster is an acceptable delay. Removing one's holster, inserting the gun (which creates potential safety issues that we have not addressed), then returning the holster to its position inside the waistband would take far too long, especially if you have more than a few students. Furthermore, if the IWB holster uses straps or a solid loop, it's going to take even more time.

I think you'd have to participate in some formal training in which drawing from the holster is integral to the curriculum to understand the context. If you have not done so, I encourage you to do so!

I won't patronize you by trying to assure you that it's possible to reholster to AIWB without incurring unacceptable risks, but it's not only very possible, we do it all the time.

Practice, this is where I'll absolutely disagree. (Politely.) If I'm practicing on my own time, I absolutely must habituate doing it correctly. Yeah, my primary IWB holster can be a PITA to take out, but it is 30-45 seconds of PITA. That's way better than hours in an ER and days/weeks of recovery.

And, from what I can tell in the video, none of those parameters were satisfied from jogging pants-shooter dude. None of my IWB holsters require disrobing in order to put into place. (Maybe I have the wrong holsters!) And I don't think shooter would've had to also, although I'm open to correction if you have more information on that holster. I'm just not familiar with it. It doesn't look like anything that would require dropping of trou.

Again, I suspect that your paradigm of practice is different from mine and most others who routinely draw from the holster in training, competition, and practice. How many times during a practice session are reholstering in a 30-45 second time frame? If you're only doing it once or twice, I can see how it would not be a significant burden. You have to understand that "we" reholster many times during a range session and what you advocate isn't practical.

Think of this: A Bill Drill is drawing and firing six shots at the A-Zone of an IPSC metric target (usually at 7-10 yards). The best shooters will complete a Bill Drill in under 2 seconds. Those of us with lesser skills will be in the 3-6 second range. If I want to shoot 12 Bill Drills (which is like a warmup), and I take 6 seconds on each, that's 72 seconds of drawing and shooting time. Let's say I take 6 seconds to reholster (which is a long time), so we're up to 144 seconds. If I took 30 seconds (the low end of your estimate for removing my holster) on each repetition, that adds six minutes to slightly over a minute of the actual shooting. If people removed their holster every time they had to reholster, they would not get anything done other than a lot of reholstering.

I hope you are not assuming that it's not possible to reholster AIWB without risking bodily injury, because it is. If it were not, I wouldn't do it, nor would any of the other people I know whose skills far surpass mine.

The bottom line is, if you need to remove your holster to return your weapon to its carry position each time, then that's what you have to do. I do not, nor could I do so and still complete any of my usual range exercises.

I'll add one final thing. The draw stroke and reholstering are essentially inverses of each other. I submit that if someone is not able to reholster safely, then it's very likely that their draw stroke and presentiation is not safe either (not to mention probably not very efficient), whether they realize it or not.

 

[JettaKnight]

You guys are funny.
What's wrong with doing your cousin anyway? I did mine all the time, and that's before I was told you're not supposed to. Years later I found out she was adopted but still.
What's wrong with doing your cousin again?

Arrested Development based on your life?

[video=youtube;dvvHPE8VjcA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvvHPE8VjcA[/video]

 

[T.Lex]

It depends on the specific sport. IWB is less common in USPSA and Steel Challenge, but very common in IDPA. Some people choose to compete with their actual carry gear, so IWB is it for them. Appendix carry is not allowed in IDPA (for arbitrary reasons that did not include safety concerns), but it is allowed in several of the USPSA and Steel Challenge Divisions. I almost always use concealment and AIWB holster for both USPSA and Steel Challenge, neither of which enhance one's chances of winning, but they do allow one to practice with their carry gear. In my case, the matches are my practice.

There is a very good USPSA shooter (M Limited) named Gabe White who specifically competes with a Glock in an AIWB and concealment.




Based on your question, is it safe to assume that you have limited experience in formal handgun training? If so, you should know that in a one day class, you may draw and reholster dozens if not hundreds of time. No one is encouraged to "quickly re-holster," but I suspect that "quickly" means different things to different people. Taking your time to safely return your gun to the holster is an acceptable delay. Removing one's holster, inserting the gun (which creates potential safety issues that we have not addressed), then returning the holster to its position inside the waistband would take far too long, especially if you have more than a few students. Furthermore, if the IWB holster uses straps or a solid loop, it's going to take even more time.

I think you'd have to participate in some formal training in which drawing from the holster is integral to the curriculum to understand the context. If you have not done so, I encourage you to do so!

I won't patronize you by trying to assure you that it's possible to reholster to AIWB without incurring unacceptable risks, but it's not only very possible, we do it all the time.




Again, I suspect that your paradigm of practice is different from mine and most others who routinely draw from the holster in training, competition, and practice. How many times during a practice session are reholstering in a 30-45 second time frame? If you're only doing it once or twice, I can see how it would not be a significant burden. You have to understand that "we" reholster many times during a range session and what you advocate isn't practical.

Think of this: A Bill Drill is drawing and firing six shots at the A-Zone of an IPSC metric target (usually at 7-10 yards). The best shooters will complete a Bill Drill in under 2 seconds. Those of us with lesser skills will be in the 3-6 second range. If I want to shoot 12 Bill Drills (which is like a warmup), and I take 6 seconds on each, that's 72 seconds of drawing and shooting time. Let's say I take 6 seconds to reholster (which is a long time), so we're up to 144 seconds. If I took 30 seconds (the low end of your estimate for removing my holster) on each repetition, that adds six minutes to slightly over a minute of the actual shooting. If people removed their holster every time they had to reholster, they would not get anything done other than a lot of reholstering.

I hope you are not assuming that it's not possible to reholster AIWB without risking bodily injury, because it is. If it were not, I wouldn't do it, nor would any of the other people I know whose skills far surpass mine.

The bottom line is, if you need to remove your holster to return your weapon to its carry position each time, then that's what you have to do. I do not, nor could I do so and still complete any of my usual range exercises.

I'll add one final thing. The draw stroke and reholstering are essentially inverses of each other. I submit that if someone is not able to reholster safely, then it's very likely that their draw stroke and presentiation is not safe either (not to mention probably not very efficient), whether they realize it or not.

Well, you COULD (take out the holster and assemble, then replace), but it would take longer than you want.

IMHO, you're trading a degree of safety for a degree of convenience. That's your personal calculus. Mine is different.

To answer a couple of the specific questions... I guess the best characterization of training that I am blessed to know (and have known) people REALLY good at shooting skills, including drawing, etc., under pressure. It hasn't really been classes, but very much in a teaching environment. It has been in a friendly enough atmosphere that it is basically a "do what you need to do while we wait" kind of thing. No stern glares or huffing and puffing.

In terms of personal practice, since I don't compete, it is geared more toward the practical. I've even practiced dropping my handgun (unloaded) as if I'd been ordered to do so.

 

[Dead Duck]

Arrested Development based on your life?

[video=youtube;dvvHPE8VjcA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvvHPE8VjcA[/video]

OMG.
Never seen it but looking familiar. Thing is my cousin was way older than me. She was one of my babysitters. Oh ya, I was one of those kids. I got to chose from a collection of babysitters that I basically tried to seduce the whole time. I was a BAD BOY.

 

[rhino]

Well, you COULD (take out the holster and assemble, then replace), but it would take longer than you want.

IMHO, you're trading a degree of safety for a degree of convenience. That's your personal calculus. Mine is different.

To answer a couple of the specific questions... I guess the best characterization of training that I am blessed to know (and have known) people REALLY good at shooting skills, including drawing, etc., under pressure. It hasn't really been classes, but very much in a teaching environment. It has been in a friendly enough atmosphere that it is basically a "do what you need to do while we wait" kind of thing. No stern glares or huffing and puffing.

In terms of personal practice, since I don't compete, it is geared more toward the practical. I've even practiced dropping my handgun (unloaded) as if I'd been ordered to do so.

You should participate in some formal training. You will enjoy it and may learn something! I always do.

 

[Dead Duck]

You should participate in some formal training. You will enjoy it and may learn something! I always do.

But what if he doesn't want to get his suit dirty?

Do they have any casual training available?

 

[OakRiver]

Having seen more than one person drop their mag unintentionally from a holster with the mag exposed (and drawing a lot of attention) I prefer the mag release to be covered.

I have no issue admitting that I am a high drag, low speed keyboard operator how often would you top up the magazine, and then insert it into the pistol while it is holstered. That seems a clunky process with only having one hand involved in the reload rather than having one hand bring the pistol down as the mag is being brought up.

 

[rhino]

But what if he doesn't want to get his suit dirty?

Do they have any casual training available?

Why you, I oughtta . . .