Holstered AIWB discharge caught on video

[wtburnette]

You don't want your mag releases covered, you want them exposed.

This for sure. While in a training class last month, I went to shoot my exercise and was surprised when the gun locked back after one shot, after being drawn from the holster with a full magazine. Looked down and realized the magazine was on the floor by my feet. The inexpensive kydex holster I picked up off of Amazon was great in every respect, except the mag release was covered on the back side and that was causing the mag release to be pressed occasionally. I've been carrying in another holster until I can pick up a dremel to remove enough material to take care of the problem.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

When I was shopping around for an OWB I found that there are a surprising amount of kydex holster which did not cover the safety or the mag releases. The one I finally settled on from Dara is cut so the safety on my M&P cannot be bumped off while the firearm is holstered.

The mag release is normally left exposed so you can top off the gun without drawing it. As long as the pistol wasn't ran dry, you can eject the magazine and insert a new one or top that one off and re-insert it. This cuts down on gun handling "off the line" for those doing competition, training classes, etc.

 

[bwframe]

The mag release is normally left exposed so you can top off the gun without drawing it. As long as the pistol wasn't ran dry, you can eject the magazine and insert a new one or top that one off and re-insert it. This cuts down on gun handling "off the line" for those doing competition, training classes, etc.

Just done this Saturday when reloading after the 1500 show. Lots of folks around, on top of a less than optimal gun handling/loading circumstances. Kept the gun in the holster after loading, popped the mag out to top it off with the extra round. Reinserted the then full mag in the holstered gun.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Ok, this thread is missing speculation on what happened, so . . . my guess after talking about this:

Pistol not properly seated, perched high in holster. Bending over seats handgun with food blister, strut pokes through side of holster, depresses trigger and KA-BLAM.

I believe he did not look pistol back in and the squarish nature of the Glock slide caught on something (maybe the eject port), like the HK P30 does sometimes, depending on maker.

So much on the line with AIWB. Please ensure you are doing it right.

 

[phylodog]

What if it "aint low-dead"?

I know it's hip and cool and stuff, I mean I got the dirty baseball hat pulled down to my eyebrows and the monkey butt facial hair and 5.11 pants with suppressor burns and everything, but can we agree that AIWB isn't for everyone?

Far too many people are doing it who have no business around firearms.

I don't disagree

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I don't disagree

I know Bruce Nelson did it, and Sibo can do no wrong, but, man, from what I see, whole lot of yahoos running around not understanding the consequences of (bad) AIWB.

Lots of ways to de-rail that Fail Train I just witnessed. I just worry that monkey see, monkey do will leave a bunch of gun culture monkeys with hole-ridden bananas.

 

[dusty88]

This gives me a lot to think about, as someone who has always appreciated the grip safety on my Springfield and yet just bought my first Glock this weekend.

IMO, a Glock is definitely not a gun for a soft holster. I don't use soft holsters on waistbands anyway, but I have used Thunderwear to carry a 380 in my shorts and I've used various purse carries (with trigger guard covers) with my Springfield.

You can always practice good safety procedures.... or think you do.... and still have something go wrong. When you look at most accidents of ANY type (guns, aviations, cars, etc) usually more than 1 problem occurred to get to that point.

The backflipper for example, would probably not have made national news for the gun being dropped IF he had picked it up more carefully. He had at least 3 mistakes to get to that ND. He carried in a holster that didn't retain his gun through movement. He did a backflip in public while carrying (which at the very least was likely to ruin concealment) and then the biggy was his gun handling. Whether or not he also was drinking excessively we don't know.

In this video, I don't know if this guys tshirt was a factor, but he didn't appear to do a sweep between his body and his holster when he reholstered. That would have been a good step. I admit I just learned that 2 weeks ago at a Fortress Defense class. I've always checked myself but never had a built-in sweep technique before. So he has at least 1 lack of safety procedure. He may or may not have a holster problem. He may or may not have a trigger problem. It looks to me like the gun just isn't seated well, but I don't know.

Still, using a gun without a manual (or grip) safety increases the possibility of an ND. And having a gun pointed in an unsafe direction increases the consequence of that ND.

I would like to think I would never do what FBI backflipper did and panic when picking up my gun. But if I did (or someone else tried to pick it up first) that grip safety suddenly seems like a very good idea.

Triple redundancy is in order for things like guns.
So I would think using a holster that keeps your gun safe (trigger covered) under all practical circumstances is first step.
Using proper technique (careful holstering, assure no clothing or other objects are in there is second form of redundancy)
Do you need a third one? Safety of some sort beyond drop safety? Pointed in a safe direction in case that IS the day you ND?

 

[T.Lex]

I don't AIWB, but it seems to me - particularly with the risks associated with that carrying modality - that the best practice would be to have both the holster and gun outside the pants, put the gun in the holster, then put the holster/gun into the pants as a single unit.

That's my IWB habit.

 

[rhino]

I know Bruce Nelson did it, and Sibo can do no wrong, but, man, from what I see, whole lot of yahoos running around not understanding the consequences of (bad) AIWB.

Lots of ways to de-rail that Fail Train I just witnessed. I just worry that monkey see, monkey do will leave a bunch of gun culture monkeys with hole-ridden bananas.

The consequences of an error are definitely higher. A acquaintance had an ND a few years ago when she was holstering a S&W Shield, felt resistance, and continued to push (rather than stop and check the holster for an obstruction). The bullet entered her lower abdomen, exited, then passed through her upper thigh, hitting the femoral in the process. A tourniquet applied immediately by a couple of people on the scene saved her life. She was well trained, but had a momentary lapse with disastrous consequences. The upside is that everyone in her circle and those of us on the periphery were provided a powerful reminder that it can happen to anyone who fails to be vigilant at all times when handling a gun.

I've been in close proximity to two negligent discharges that occurred when the shooter was trying to holster too quickly and failed to remove their trigger finger. Both were belt holster worn on the strong side hip and both had through-and-through hits on their trouser legs, but not injury. On the second occasion, the discharged bullet came with an couple of inches of my foot and I still have a clear mental image of the gravel and dust flying from the impact. That pair of underwear is buried in the back yard.

All of us need to be very, very careful when holstering a weapon, but all who choose a carry position in which the muzzle is pointed at something important must be even more so. There are no prizes for speed REholstering.

 

[rhino]

I don't AIWB, but it seems to me - particularly with the risks associated with that carrying modality - that the best practice would be to have both the holster and gun outside the pants, put the gun in the holster, then put the holster/gun into the pants as a single unit.

That's my IWB habit.

That will work for when you're getting dressed, but it's not practical for practice, training, or competition.

 

[T.Lex]

That will work for when you're getting dressed, but it's not practical for practice, training, or competition.

Politely, I'd like to challenge that assertion, in reverse order.

I'll concede the competition part. Except, if I did that, I don't think I'd go IWB. Rather, I'd use an OWB option where I can watch it all the way in. I don't compete (although it is on my bucket list) - how many people go IWB, or what percentage? I'm genuinely curious now.

Training, I'm still a bit confused by this. It seems to me that IWB would not be ideal and OWB would be appropriate. Even if you are supposed to carry as if you were in the "real world," then how often will we have to quickly re-holster? That is, if it is a real world scenario, isn't the emphasis on the draw, shooting, and reloading under pressure? Why would there be a need to re-holster without the corresponding time/opportunity to take the holster out?

Practice, this is where I'll absolutely disagree. (Politely.) If I'm practicing on my own time, I absolutely must habituate doing it correctly. Yeah, my primary IWB holster can be a PITA to take out, but it is 30-45 seconds of PITA. That's way better than hours in an ER and days/weeks of recovery.

And, from what I can tell in the video, none of those parameters were satisfied from jogging pants-shooter dude. None of my IWB holsters require disrobing in order to put into place. (Maybe I have the wrong holsters!) And I don't think shooter would've had to also, although I'm open to correction if you have more information on that holster. I'm just not familiar with it. It doesn't look like anything that would require dropping of trou.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

I'm blown away that this thread hasn't mentioned the Striker Control Device (aka - The Gadget) for Glocks... Helps a shooter know when there is pressure on their trigger before it goes :BANG:

 

[dusty88]

Politely, I'd like to challenge that assertion, in reverse order.

Training, I'm still a bit confused by this. It seems to me that IWB would not be ideal and OWB would be appropriate. Even if you are supposed to carry as if you were in the "real world," then how often will we have to quickly re-holster? That is, if it is a real world scenario, isn't the emphasis on the draw, shooting, and reloading under pressure? Why would there be a need to re-holster without the corresponding time/opportunity to take the holster out?

There isn't a rush. You are taught not to be in a rush. However what is a "rush" in real terms? You are on the range with classmates and everyone reholsters before anyone is allowed to bend down, leave the line etc. No matter how much your classmates love you and are willing to wait, you are likely to feel personal pressure to step it up.

This isn't incompatible with real-world defense. In the real world defense situationi you are going to reholster only once. If I am really nervous and shaking I might even need plan B which I practice (put the gun on the ground and step on it). But I'm not going to have to reholster 16 times. For carrying in a location where reholstering can't be done as smoothly I practice reholstering at home with an unloaded weapon. But in general I realize that if I ever pull my 380 out of my Thunderwear from inside my running shorts.... I'm going to be waiting for a very calm time to put it back in OR I'm going to be putting it on the ground and dealing with it later.

If I want to seriously take part in training, I definitely need a IWB or OWB firm holster that I can safely reholster repeatedly with some confidence (which translates to "slow and smooth" but not "take 5 minutes")

 

[dung]

I know Bruce Nelson did it, and Sibo can do no wrong, but, man, from what I see, whole lot of yahoos running around not understanding the consequences of (bad) AIWB.

Lots of ways to de-rail that Fail Train I just witnessed. I just worry that monkey see, monkey do will leave a bunch of gun culture monkeys with hole-ridden bananas.

Which one of us doesn't have a hole in our banana?

 

[dusty88]

I don't AIWB, but it seems to me - particularly with the risks associated with that carrying modality - that the best practice would be to have both the holster and gun outside the pants, put the gun in the holster, then put the holster/gun into the pants as a single unit.

That's my IWB habit.

One more question. Once you have a grip on your gun, you take a few shots, and you want to reholster:

Can you keep your gun pointed in a safe direction while you stand on the line and remove your holster from your waistband in order to get the gun back in the holster? At best, that's going to mean 1 hand on the gun and 1 on the holster then bringing said holster forward in a way that you don't muzzle yourself. I'm thinking that's tricky. It would work if you have a table in front of you to set the gun down while you get your holster back out, but not so much when standing on a range. If you can remove your holster with 1 hand, it's possibly not very secure.

 

[T.Lex]

One more question. Once you have a grip on your gun, you take a few shots, and you want to reholster:

Can you keep your gun pointed in a safe direction while you stand on the line and remove your holster from your waistband in order to get the gun back in the holster? At best, that's going to mean 1 hand on the gun and 1 on the holster then bringing said holster forward in a way that you don't muzzle yourself. I'm thinking that's tricky. It would work if you have a table in front of you to set the gun down while you get your holster back out, but not so much when standing on a range. If you can remove your holster with 1 hand, it's possibly not very secure.

I will admit I was thinking more about the table-available type transaction.

But, in answer to your question, I'm not above putting my gun on the ground (pointed downrange). I suspect that, in certain training environs, that may be holding up the training for someone behind me or something. Or, that might get some glares from the trainer while we wait. But, I'm still not sure that overcomes "doing it the right way."

(Although, again, I think an OWB solution would be better.)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

All of us need to be very, very careful when holstering a weapon, but all who choose a carry position in which the muzzle is pointed at something important must be even more so. There are no prizes for speed REholstering.

Yes, I have to purposefully do the one Mississippi or I'll put it away too fast.

With AIWB if you won't put it away right, the darn thing can bite you good and hard.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Which one of us doesn't have a hole in our banana?

Holes not put there by Nature!

 

[Benp]

When I AIWB and am reholstering I take an extra couple of seconds to make sure the holster is unobstructed and that I get the reliable seating click when it is fully holstered.

 

[dusty88]

We may need a ND thread. We've had a glut of them lately (Whole Foods NAA/green bag guy, the Dayton newspaper stuffer, the FBI back-flipper, this one) and they are starting to blur.

There was possibly an officer in San Diego who had an ND reholstering? or as the media and police chief say "there was a wounded officer whose gun accidentally discharged and was shot in the lower leg"