Here's the Criminal Complaint: USA v Charles F. Ludington (Ludco)

[Indyvet]

There is two sides to every story and then there is the truth. Of course he is innocent until proven guilty. All everyone has to go by right now is what is being reported in the news. If everything I have read is true it is almost unbelievable. I wonder what he was thinking if it is true? If he sold 2800 firearms in a year's time, and just say you average it at 400 per transaction that is well over a million. That is just firearms. Who knows what he was selling in accessories, ammo, etc. Why would you throw that all away. Not to mention the forfeiture of millions in inventory and property. We have had instances of straw purchases being attempted in the shop as I am sure others have as well. Have even had to call the law a couple of times. Long story. Sometimes it is a simple case of people just not understanding the law, then we explain it to them and usually they are fine with it and just really did not understand. If it is found to be true, for them to go in and make the statements that they did and he still made the sales just completely baffles me as I am sure it does everyone else. The paperwork and record keeping is not fun but it is part of it. To have that many guns missing and the other problems with paperwork sounds like there may yet to be more uncovered. I could understand a few mess ups here and there, it happens and no one is perfect but man this sounds extremely excessive. If you are moving that much inventory and have that much inventory surely if you do not like the paperwork and record keeping that you could have hired someone and paid them to handle all of the paperwork and record keeping. I never saw this shop but had heard about it several times. I heard there were guns literally hanging from the ceiling on string and guns stacked on top of guns stacked on top of guns. I can't even imagine what a mess that looked like.

 

[12bee]

I didn't read all of it, but it seems to me that the detectives were male and female.Were they posing as husband and wife?Did anybody else notice that?

 

[shooter521]

I heard there were guns literally hanging from the ceiling on string and guns stacked on top of guns stacked on top of guns. I can't even imagine what a mess that looked like.

Something like this:

 

[Indyvet]

Something like this:

Holy crap. How could you find anything? I mean it looks like, "hey you got a sig p250?" "yeah, third string from the left under the 16 10/22's and the 14 M&P's or was it under the 17 Henry rifles 10 strings to the right? Talking about hoarding. This would have been a classic for that show hoarders. How would you know if you were missing anything? I wonder how many weeks the audit they did took.

 

[Indyvet]

I didn't read all of it, but it seems to me that the detectives were male and female.Were they posing as husband and wife?Did anybody else notice that?

That's how I read it. I think it was a couple of scenarios. Husband/wife and then the one where it was buddies and another where the guy just had some girl with him he was paying 50 bucks for filling out the form. Sounded like they were not the same and done a few different ways just to solidify the case.

 

[Arm America]

Ouch!

 

[sepe]

Even with good prices, I'd be staying far, far away just based on that. Having mega inventory is nice but that is all clutter.

 

[sanzo87]

I have been to this shop and bought several firearms off of ludco. Fred wasn't a pleasant guy to deal with from my EXP. He always treated me like a punk kid that was wasting his time. When more often than not I bought something or other when I was in his shop.

The shop was a total mess if you didnt know what you were looking for or didn't see it you may never know it was there (some of the time fred and dean didn't know if they had it either). The new handguns were stacked 2 to 3 deep or more at all times yes there were guns hung from strings/hooks in the ceiling and yes he was out with a heartattack last year. But that is no excuse for one's books been that bad i mean if your that bad at paper work employ the help to do it (not like his shop didn't do more than enough sales to cover the overhead)

The undercover work seemed to be done in the proper manner. Though I am seeing a lot of people complain on how they "set him up". You must keep in mind these are the same types of methods they conduct drug busts, alcohol sales checks and many other types of investigations. And, yes they are running a thin line so they must be very careful on what they say and more importantly how they say it. Do I like that the ATF has as much power as it does no but at the same time if every one is always going on about how what is in place needs enforced instead of making new laws. Then it goes with out saying that they need to do these checks and check FFL's books.

So if you aren't good at keeping your books in that kinda business then you either need to hire someone to do it or don't have that business. As for the other charges if what is in the report is true and they find him guilty then I believe he gets everything he deserves. Only time will tell.

 

[Indy317]

This guy isn't "innocent till proven guilty." That isn't anywhere in the Constitution. The guy's freedom and property is restricted until such time there is a conclusion to his criminal case. Reading the PC, sounds guilty to me. Even if the court throws out the case, or he is found "Not guilty!" that doesn't mean one is innocent.

 

[STEEL CORE]

3-5 in the Pen, "AFTER" his actions ruined him, his family, my advice save what $money you can for your family, plea, plead, and welcome to Club Fed.

 

[PatriotPride]

Bear in mind that he hasn't been convicted of anything yet. This is just the list of charges. He's still innocent until he has his day in court.

Exactly.

This guy isn't "innocent till proven guilty." That isn't anywhere in the Constitution. The guy's freedom and property is restricted until such time there is a conclusion to his criminal case. Reading the PC, sounds guilty to me. Even if the court throws out the case, or he is found "Not guilty!" that doesn't mean one is innocent.

You're right---it actually predates the US Constitution and was English Common Law. This man ABSOLUTELY is to be deemed "innocent until proven guilty", otherwise, it is IMPOSSIBLE to try him fairly and impartially.

According to a ruling made by SCOTUS, "the presumption of the innocence of a criminal defendant is best described as an assumption of innocence that is indulged in the absence of contrary evidence" (Taylor v. Kentucky, 436 U.S. 478, 98 S. Ct. 1930, 56 L. Ed. 2d 468 [1978]).

IANAA, but it does appear to me that even though the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" is not EXPLICITLY in the Constitution, it has still been deemed valid by SCOTUS.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

 

[dbd870]

With the UC's having a much on tape as the document says they do he's in big trouble.

 

[Steven]

It doesn't hurt or cost a thing to disagree with a law, It's an entirely different story to disobey one.

 

[Grump01]

Good post.

 

[Grump01]

To the other gun store owners in central Indiana:

Please take note and avoid the pitfalls that Fred fell into. Not only the criminal allegations, but also the seemingly massive record keeping blunders.

I am not among the Fred bashers. I actually loved his store. He kept in stock a lot of rare and obscure firearms that I was always interested in. I was able to hold in my hands a lot of cool guns that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise--no other shop has a comparable inventory. Lol, I mean he had stuff in his shop that you couldn't find at the 1500 on a good day!

I also saw through Fred's sometimes abrasive facade to a man who has been running the same small business for 40 years and has become very set in his ways.

My first firearm purchase was at his store, and I have made a lot of very positive memories there. I do not excuse criminal malfeasance. But even if he is convicted and guilty of all charges, I will miss him and his store dearly.

Nevertheless, I don't want to lose ANY MORE gun shops to the ATF's christmas tree; so please, for all of our sakes, keep on the up and up!!!

Should have quoted this when I replied "Good post". My details a little different, but very similar.

 

[christman]

Sucks to be him. If 2A hadn't become so bastardized over the years, there would be no serious charges to bring up in the first place.




If felons are so dangerous, keep them in prison. Don't let them come out and enjoy only the rights someone picks and chooses for them.

 

[Frankingun]

Nevertheless. I admit that it doesn't look good, but let's not condemn the man based on one side of the story. The Constitution guarantees that we're innocent until proven guilty in a quart of slaw.

I may be misremembering that last part.

Considering how convoluted some court decisions are, I think your memory is accurate.

I stopped in Ludco last summer and didn't feel like going through a stack of rifles, so I just bought some airgun pellets. If these violations are true then its not a good thing for him or the rest of us.

 

[seanamus]

Sucks to be him. If 2A hadn't become so bastardized over the years, there would be no serious charges to bring up in the first place.




If felons are so dangerous, keep them in prison. Don't let them come out and enjoy only the rights someone picks and chooses for them.

very true, and it will continue to be ruined until all gun owners stop bickering about calibers and guns and take a hardline on the banners and push them back to the 1900's no more NFA no more FOPA no more GCA no more anything if someone breaks the law (murder or something) lock em up and throw away the key or death by firing squad and no more 38 retrials, if you are found guilty twice by two different groups of people then you are gone
thats right i have six sense (lol)


as for fred, good luck, more is always better more dealers more choices more competition lower prices

 

[IndyGunSafety]

I hope you will all keep a few things in mind. First of all I do not know this shop owner, nor have I ever been to his shop.

The vast majority of the counts against him are paperwork errors. Missing dates or check boxes. In my experience one in ten customers fill out the 4473 form 100% correctly. They put their date of birth for today's day, etc. Many times when I TRY to give specific instructions on how to fill the form out properly I am met with "yeah, yeah yeah, I've done this a thousand times before." I do not recall anyone who ever made comments like that actually filling out the form correctly!

I hope you all realize that while it is the dealer's responsibility to ensure the form is filled out correctly, every time you fill out a form ANY mistake you make that is not caught by the dealer is considered an EGREGIOUS and WILLFUL PAPERWORK VIOLATION as it says in the complaint. There is no such thing as a mistake.

So please.... when you fill out the form, LISTEN to the instructions given by the dealer. How many of you have read the PAGES of instructions attached to the 4473? Next time you are in a shop, ask if you can have a form or a copy of the instructions. READ THEM. And please... when you fill out the form, SLOW DOWN!

Criminal complaints are often filled with every little petty violation they can pile on to make the complaint as inflammatory as possible to ensure they "get" you on something, or to make it so impossible for you to defend against that you will take a plea bargain.

The vast majority of you have NO IDEA what the paperwork requirements are for dealers. I rolled my eyes at a recent post on another thread that said "Dealers love transfers because they are easy money." NO THEY ARE NOT! I have to chase your gun down, then sit on it until you decide to come and get it, and ANY mistake or error on the 4473 or the bound book entries could mean my license. That's why we went up to $35. We won't take transfers from individuals anymore because they cheat on the shipping and UPS leaves your gun on my doorstep for anyone to steal! (they have no idea what's inside if it's not declared!) I even get LICENSED DEALERS that do the same thing. One more time and the fee goes up to $50!

All I am saying is that there is more to it than meets the eye. Let's see what the facts are in this case before we judge him.

 

[PatriotPride]

I hope you will all keep a few things in mind. First of all I do not know this shop owner, nor have I ever been to his shop.

The vast majority of the counts against him are paperwork errors. Missing dates or check boxes. In my experience one in ten customers fill out the 4473 form 100% correctly. They put their date of birth for today's day, etc. Many times when I TRY to give specific instructions on how to fill the form out properly I am met with "yeah, yeah yeah, I've done this a thousand times before." I do not recall anyone who ever made comments like that actually filling out the form correctly!

I hope you all realize that while it is the dealer's responsibility to ensure the form is filled out correctly, every time you fill out a form ANY mistake you make that is not caught by the dealer is considered an EGREGIOUS and WILLFUL PAPERWORK VIOLATION as it says in the complaint. There is no such thing as a mistake.

So please.... when you fill out the form, LISTEN to the instructions given by the dealer. How many of you have read the PAGES of instructions attached to the 4473? Next time you are in a shop, ask if you can have a form or a copy of the instructions. READ THEM. And please... when you fill out the form, SLOW DOWN!

Criminal complaints are often filled with every little petty violation they can pile on to make the complaint as inflammatory as possible to ensure they "get" you on something, or to make it so impossible for you to defend against that you will take a plea bargain.

The vast majority of you have NO IDEA what the paperwork requirements are for dealers. I rolled my eyes at a recent post on another thread that said "Dealers love transfers because they are easy money." NO THEY ARE NOT! I have to chase your gun down, then sit on it until you decide to come and get it, and ANY mistake or error on the 4473 or the bound book entries could mean my license. That's why we went up to $35. We won't take transfers from individuals anymore because they cheat on the shipping and UPS leaves your gun on my doorstep for anyone to steal! (they have no idea what's inside if it's not declared!) I even get LICENSED DEALERS that do the same thing. One more time and the fee goes up to $50!

All I am saying is that there is more to it than meets the eye. Let's see what the facts are in this case before we judge him.

I can respect what you're saying here.

However, I'd like to point out that you are, of course, free to charge whatever fee you think is necessary for transfers. We as the customer are free to transfer through a shop that hasn't jumped their price to an outrageous $50.