Had a deputy sheriff bust my chops...

[serpicostraight]

would the real tim davis express his opinion? im interested in hearing his side of the story. of course if he doesnt want to talk i understand i probobaly wouldnt either after going rambo while off duty with my kids and showing them the correct example of a jackass.

 

[thompal]

Check this out.

Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for openly carrying guns

Thanks, I was looking for that case. Unfortunately, it has NO BEARING on us, because it's not from the 7th District. It will only affect us if a similar rulings comes out of our District Court, or if this one would have made it to the US Supreme Court.

 

[thompal]

IMO you are stating your opinion of the way you would like the law to read.

I read it differently, I'm not attacking you just disagree with your opinion.


I'm also going to have to disagree with LE relying on dispatcher information, I've been on lots of ride alongs and I would say from my experience the dispatcher info is right less then half the time.

The way I've read caselaw, is that, in this case, the IMPD officer was acting "in good faith" or "reasonably believed" an infraction had occurred simply because he had been told so by another LEO, and it doesn't matter whether the first LEO is educated or not, or a JBT or not. So, the IMPD officer acted on his reasonable belief. The deputy didn't, but he also didn't perform any actions "under color of law" since he didn't disarm or detain the OP.

So, I'd say that the IMPD officer acted reasonably (although we may not really like the indignity), but the deputy was an absolute moron who should probably have been soundly ignored. If Deputy Moron had then decided to take it further by attempting to disarm or detain, we would have an entirely different set of arguments. . . . ..

 

[Denny347]

I have brought this up before (and this is no excuse but more of a reason). State training includes VERY LITTLE state law. Hundreds of hours of Constitutional Law but virtually none on state law and ZERO local ordinance training. The state law training we get are laws regarding domestic violence (as mandated by the state every year) and that is about it. The department gives us a small book of Indiana Laws printed by the prosecutor's office that only has a portion of Indiana laws in them. It is each officer's responsibility to teach themselves. Then there is civil law. We have no authority in civil matters but we need to know it to try to resolve issues we come across. Again NOT an excuse but is it really a surprise that members of a gun board know gun laws better than an officer who needs to be familiar with hundreds of laws that span the width of all known criminal and civil offenses? It's an imperfect process for sure. Then you add in the fact that the Special Deputy might have had far less training in the law but with the same arrest powers as I.

 

[MinuteMan47]

...
Well, since it appears that Tim Davis has been made aware of our discourse, he is more than welcome to give us his side. I look forward to it.

Would the REAL Tim Davis PLEASE stand up?!


I find this whole situation to be . No one is going to give me, or the next guy, second chances for ignorance of the law if I have broken one! So therefore, the officer should be just as accountable for his ignorance. Some type of punishment is deserved otherwise there would be no sense of urgency for an officer to learn the laws.

There is no law stating a person with an LTCH can not open carry a firearm. PERIOD. I am breaking no laws. PERIOD. End of discussion. Get in your cruiser and go harrass a jaywalker or something!!!

 

[MinuteMan47]

It is each officer's responsibility to teach themselves...(snip)...Again NOT an excuse but is it really a surprise that members of a gun board know gun laws better than an officer who needs to be familiar with hundreds of laws that span the width of all known criminal and civil offenses? It's an imperfect process for sure. Then you add in the fact that the Special Deputy might have had far less training in the law but with the same arrest powers as I.

IMO - LEOs should be required to keep up with 'credit hours' for the laws which they enforce. Every professional certification I hold requires me to keep up with 'continuing education' in those areas.

 

[Denny347]

IMO - LEOs should be required to keep up with 'credit hours' for the laws which they enforce. Every professional certification I hold requires me to keep up with 'continuing education' in those areas.

We are. 24hrs a year. Only criminal law required by the state is domestic battery. The rest of it is all required training by the state but in other areas...SIDS, Hazmat, firearms, etc.

 

[jd4320t]

Would the REAL Tim Davis PLEASE stand up?!


I find this whole situation to be . No one is going to give me, or the next guy, second chances for ignorance of the law if I have broken one! So therefore, the officer should be just as accountable for his ignorance. Some type of punishment is deserved otherwise there would be no sense of urgency for an officer to learn the laws.

There is no law stating a person with an LTCH can not open carry a firearm. PERIOD. I am breaking no laws. PERIOD. End of discussion. Get in your cruiser and go harrass a jaywalker or something!!!

I agree completely. If I did something wrong at work that is a deviation from procedure, ultimately someone could die. So, I would get written up to keep me from making the mistake again. LEO's should have the same rules. It's hard for me to understand why they aren't forced to know the law. I'm assuming most do know their stuff but somewhere along the line this LEO missed this law.

 

[Denny347]

This is what we need each year. We struggle to get all 1800 of us through this in 3 sessions a year. A logistical nightmare between this 3 times a year, handgun/shotgun inservice 2 times a year as well as patrol rifle 2 times a year. Then on top of that vacations...patrol beats go unmanned to make up for it.
ILEA: Frequently Asked Questions

Mental Illness, Addiction & Disabilities** - IC 5-2-1-9(g)
Human Trafficking (8 areas)** - IC 5-2-1-9(g) & IC 5-2-1-9(a)(10)
Autism* IC 5-2-1-9(g)
Theft of Valuable Metals* - Does not appear in code – expires in 2011.
Departments should obtain the training in 2009, 2010 and 2011.
General Continuing Education Requirement - IC 5-2-1-9(g)
Presently 24 hours annually – must include 2 hours in Firearms*, 2 hours in Physical Tactics/Use of Force*** and 2 hours in Police Vehicle Operation.
Officers should receive some training in all of the IC 5-2-1-9 requirements each year. The areas specifically required in IC 5-2-1-9 can be used to partially satisfy the 24-hour requirement.
Under State/County/Local Continuing Education Laws
(State: 5-2-8-5; County: 5-2-8-1; Local: 5-2-8-2; Conservation: 5-2-8-7; Excise: 5-2-8-8).
Domestic and Child Abuses IC 5-2-8-[1&2&5](e)(1-16)
SIDS IC 5-2-8-[1&2&5](e)(17)
CPR and Heimlich Maneuver IC 5-2-8-[1&2](e)(18).
Departments should be prepared to show that officers are competent in these areas although these do not necessarily require annual training.
Federal :
NIMS (DHS, required for DHS grants)
Bloodborne Pathogens (EPA, 29 CFR 1910.1030)
Hazardous Materials (EPA & OSHA, 29 CFR 1910.120)

 

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[MinuteMan47]

We are. 24hrs a year. Only criminal law required by the state is domestic battery. The rest of it is all required training by the state but in other areas...SIDS, Hazmat, firearms, etc.

So, with those 24 hours take 1 hour (just one) and explain to the uneducated officers the BASICs in IN gun laws. #1 It is LEGAL for citizens to posses (and OC) firearms...not just you. So don't feel threatened and cry "I disarmed him for my safety" BS! #2 If the weapon is holstered on the person or in the vehicle of a licensed citizen then DO NOT TOUCH IT...there is NO REASON to. Again NO NEED TO DISARM THEM. It would be ok if the officer said "keep your hands where I can see them" or the like. But don't bust my balls because you went through all of your "officer training" () just to have a gun and a badge and now they realize all you had to do was apply for a LTCH.

 

[jd4320t]

This is what we need each year. We struggle to get all 1800 of us through this in 3 sessions a year. A logistical nightmare between this 3 times a year, handgun/shotgun inservice 2 times a year as well as patrol rifle 2 times a year. Then on top of that vacations...patrol beats go unmanned to make up for it.
ILEA: Frequently Asked Questions

Mental Illness, Addiction & Disabilities** - IC 5-2-1-9(g)
Human Trafficking (8 areas)** - IC 5-2-1-9(g) & IC 5-2-1-9(a)(10)
Autism* IC 5-2-1-9(g)
Theft of Valuable Metals* - Does not appear in code – expires in 2011.
Departments should obtain the training in 2009, 2010 and 2011.
General Continuing Education Requirement - IC 5-2-1-9(g)
Presently 24 hours annually – must include 2 hours in Firearms*, 2 hours in Physical Tactics/Use of Force*** and 2 hours in Police Vehicle Operation.
Officers should receive some training in all of the IC 5-2-1-9 requirements each year. The areas specifically required in IC 5-2-1-9 can be used to partially satisfy the 24-hour requirement.
Under State/County/Local Continuing Education Laws
(State: 5-2-8-5; County: 5-2-8-1; Local: 5-2-8-2; Conservation: 5-2-8-7; Excise: 5-2-8-8).
Domestic and Child Abuses IC 5-2-8-[1&2&5](e)(1-16)
SIDS IC 5-2-8-[1&2&5](e)(17)
CPR and Heimlich Maneuver IC 5-2-8-[1&2](e)(18).
Departments should be prepared to show that officers are competent in these areas although these do not necessarily require annual training.
Federal :
NIMS (DHS, required for DHS grants)
Bloodborne Pathogens (EPA, 29 CFR 1910.1030)
Hazardous Materials (EPA & OSHA, 29 CFR 1910.120)

I'm sure it could be managed better. We do a LOT of training at work and there are a LOT of people. If for some reason you guys can't get all your training in then management is failing. There are so many mistakes made in the workplace everyday that could be avoided with better training.

Until now I would not have thought that LEO's struggled to keep up on their training. It's kinda scary!

 

[MinuteMan47]

This is what we need each year. We struggle to get all 1800 of us through this in 3 sessions a year. A logistical nightmare between this 3 times a year, handgun/shotgun inservice 2 times a year as well as patrol rifle 2 times a year. Then on top of that vacations...patrol beats go unmanned to make up for it.
ILEA: Frequently Asked Questions

How hard would it be for your CO to take the time (possibly during role call?) to go over this type of stuff that has happened...

ex. "Yesterday Dept Davis encountered an OCer...I just want to inform everyone that under Indiana law this is perfectly LEGAL........"

No logistical nightmare in that. Just common sense.

 

[pig957]

Unless I am mistaken, the MCSD just works the jail and court, so Deputy Davis is probably not current on a lot of Indiana's laws. No excuse just an explaination.

 

[sjstill]

FWIW, last I knew MCSD increased their academy to 17 weeks. Current grads are ILEA certified (or supposed to be).

Stupid, stupid move on deputy's part, getting into an LE encounter off-duty with kids in car. Un-freakin-forgivable. That alone would be grounds for major butt-chewing if I were his supervisor.

I challenge you guys to apply to do a ride-out some night on East District. Hell, any district. I'm pretty sure you'd change your tune. But maybe not.

I went to a class last week at the Academy, and one of the blocks was "CCW permits". I waited until the break and talked to the instructor about the difference between LTCH and "CCW", but it fell on deaf ears.

FWIW, I submitted an email to Training to make this a future Inservice subject. We'll see what happens.

 

[sjstill]

Unless I am mistaken, the MCSD just works the jail and court, so Deputy Davis is probably not current on a lot of Indiana's laws. No excuse just an explaination.

Yep, you're mistaken.

 

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[MinuteMan47]

The Sheriff, by the State Constitution and other law, is charged with it's responsibility to the Courts and the Jail, among the number of other responsibilities it holds. He is the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of his county, regardless of the circumstances.

I would be rather upset if a Sheriff Deputy to not stop and intervene if he observed an egregious act committed, merely because he or she wasn't on, or work a beat.

I would too. However, I would define an "egregious act" as an armed robbery, theft, drinking and driving, reckless driving, domestic battery, or maybe if the man was waving the pistol around in the gas station parking lot, but this was not the case...

 

[jbombelli]

The public does not share the same, qualified authority and qualified immunity, as LE.

An at large person can certainly intervene during the commission of a felony, and take the lawful and reasonable measures to protect the well being of life and property.



Same punishment, differing circumstances. Okay, fine.

If this Deputy would have instead of listened to the OP after he approached and detained same, verified his own information of OC within Indiana, subsequently apologized for his misunderstanding........I imagine that everyone would still would be calling for this cop's head, to include you.

You know, I highly doubt that. THAT would have shown a real desire to do his job correctly, instead of a real desire to be a schmuck. I wouldn't call for his head if he had done what you say above. It's his pig-headed, arrogant assertion that he was right, when he wasn't, and his stated attempt to get the guy's gun confiscated and LTCH revoked. He was an a-hole and ought to be bit*h-slapped.

 

[sjstill]

He was an a-hole and ought to be bit*h-slapped.

So, then you commit battery on a Law Enforcement officer and go to jail... Yeah, that'll teach 'em.