Guy down range at USPSA Event

[BigBoxaJunk]

When it comes down to it, the RO gave the "Make Ready" command without first verifying that the range was actually clear.

Sure, the RO might have yelled louder when he made the "Make Ready" command, but to me, the RO making sure that the range was, in fact, clear before yelling the command would be non-negotiable. After-all, if the guy downrange did hear the command, what was he supposed to do? What if he yelled that he was there and the RO couldn't hear that?

If the RO isn't required to verify that the range is clear before giving the command, then what's the purpose of giving the command?

 

[Cameramonkey]

http://uspsa.org/document_library/2015/NROI PA.pdf

"reminds us all that safety on the range is everyone's responsibility." (emphasis in original doc, not mine)

"The Range Officer ... must KNOW that the range is clear of all people before proceeding... NROI strongly recommends that the RO is the LAST person to return to the starting position" (emphasis in original doc, not mine)

Nothing in the doc from NROI I disagree with.
As an asside, I like seeing more communication from USPSA lately.

-rvb

IANAL but while it doesnt absolve everyone of fault, it does seem that the RO has the ultimate responsibility and the buck stops there. The RO is in charge. While the shooter does have the ultimate responsibility to ESPECIALLY not shoot a breathing, incidental "no shoot" on the CoF, I cant see how the shooter would be automatically liable for a secondary hit of the brasser if he happened to be behind a target AND a screen (assuming some screens may be downrange from a target). After all, with a rule like that, the shooter would be operating off of the authority of the RO that the course was indeed clear, correct?

When it comes down to it, the RO gave the "Make Ready" command without first verifying that the range was actually clear.

Sure, the RO might have yelled louder when he made the "Make Ready" command, but to me, the RO making sure that the range was, in fact, clear before yelling the command would be non-negotiable. After-all, if the guy downrange did hear the command, what was he supposed to do? What if he yelled that he was there and the RO couldn't hear that?

If the RO isn't required to verify that the range is clear before giving the command, then what's the purpose of giving the command?

Yell "Cease Fire!" three times and be prepared to hit the dirt to minimize the chance of being hit? If that were me they'd be stopping 3 bays away because I yelled so loud. Oh, and not chase brass until AFTER the match or at least during an official break when no shooting is going on. That would help tremendously.

Even the thought of that video makes my stomach turn. Good on that shooter for recognizing the problem before it was too late.

 

[sdtech58]

It'd be great to have the prior 30 seconds of this video to see if the RO did check the stage.

Regardless, YOU are responsible for your own safety. The guy downrange has to take most or all of the "blame" in this case. If no one else is left downrange with me, I'd want to know why and make darn sure no lead is going to be flying my way. I don't rely on anyone else for my safety in any other situations. Why should this be any different?

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Regardless, YOU are responsible for your own safety.

So, do you stop at every intersection and look both ways, even when the light is green?

The guy downrange has to take most or all of the "blame" in this case. If no one else is left downrange with me, I'd want to know why and make darn sure no lead is going to be flying my way. I don't rely on anyone else for my safety in any other situations. Why should this be any different?

If what you say is true, then how could anyone ever be able to feel safe when they are downrange if their view of the firing line is even partially blocked?

 

[sdtech58]

I don't stop at green lights, but I am paying attention to what is going on around me so I'm ready to react if something isn't right. The guy down range in the video appears to be totally oblivious to everything around him.

 

[bucktowner]

If the brasser was wearing hearing protection he wouldn't have heard any warnings. Based on his reaction, it appears as though he is either wearing hearing protection, or completely deaf. That would make a hazardous job deadly.

 

[printcraft]

........Oh, and not chase brass until AFTER the match or at least during an official break when no shooting is going on. That would help tremendously.

I don't even know why it would be allowed anytime "during" a match. Yeah, you might have some mixed brass..... better than an extra hole in your brass.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I don't even know why it would be allowed anytime "during" a match. Yeah, you might have some mixed brass..... better than an extra hole in your brass.

Maybe to get it before it gets walked on by the next guy.

 

[SMiller]

Spent brass is not worth my life...

If you are there to compete and run a event then do so, when the event is over get your ****.

 

[rvb]

Brassing during stage reset isn't unusal, depending on the club, number of folks on the squad for pasting, etc. Brassing after the stage reset is complete means you aren't paying attention.

An RO who can use his voice can be heard over earpro and gunshots. "Clear the Range" is an un-official, but common range command to get the brass chickens off the stage.

-rvb

 

[cmamath13]

Oh my! That's insane!!!

 

[Tripp11]

Why not climb the adjacent berm and fall over to the other side - especially at the point when the shooter is engaging targets to the left. He surely knew the course of fire.

 

[17 squirrel]

It's the RO's job to make sure NO ONE is down range before he gives commands to load and make ready. This RO didn't do his job. I'm sure there will be repercussions.

That is as simple as it gets.... Its the RO's job to make sure the range is safe and clear before anything else happens.

 

[GLOCKMAN23C]

That's some scary . Glad that no one was hurt. Definitely makes one contemplate all the fail that can happen when one, or more, become complacent.

 

[6mm Shoot]

In my trade we have to enter some places that are called confined entry spaces. They may be tanks or other places that the air may be bad or some such thing that could cause your death. To enter such a space you have to sign a paper to enter and you have a person as the entry officer. You may have to have supplied air to enter the space or other stuff that protects you from harm. All the information is on the peace of the paper that you signed and the entry officer goes over it with you. Now with that stated I would think that the range we shoot at is every bit as dangerous as a confined space.

The RO is to me the same as the entry officer. He is in charge. He is the person that will tell you to hit the road if you are unsafe. Telling the range officer to go to hell will get you thrown out of any range I know of. What they say is law. Wrong or not they are in charge.

Why the RO didn't know there was a guy down range is beyond me. He should know what is going on at his range. Did the guy jump a fence to pick up some brass? If that is what happened then he should have been given a free ride to the closest mental health place.

The shooter was given the all clear to shoot. The sad part about this hole thing is if he had killed the guy down range he would been the one that would have to live with that for the rest of his life and he had dun everything right.

I take home from the film that the guy down range was some place he shouldn't have been and the RO didn't have a clue.

 

[bwframe]

I'm not convinced the down range guy was policing brass. He was never bent over in the video and pasting a target as he comes into the video. As grainy as the video is (don't they know HD is the standard now?) whatever was in the guy's hand could well be pastors, a pastor gun, towel, etc. The guy was pasting targets as is required to make the course ready for the next shooter.

Even if you want to somehow paint the downrange guy as some kind dumbass, we as RO's are still responsible for making sure the range is clear of all humans, dumbasses and all, BEFORE giving the "Make Ready" command.

 

[Bosshoss]

Man this thread reminds me of work. When someone got hurt at work or we had a major quality issue EVERYONE came out of the woodwork wondering how something like this could happen and why it happened and how to prevent it from happening again. It is obvious that several on this thread have never been to a match before and while it is also obvious that something went wrong this time, I'm not going to play the blame game because ANYONE that has ROed before could see how this could happen. In just the Last 3 years I have seen RO's give the "Make Ready" command while people were down range probably a dozen times. The shooter never got the gun out of the holster before SOMEONE stopped them. I was one of those that gave the make ready command while someone was downrange.
The paster was behind barrels (3 wide x 2 high) pasting 2 swingers that came out the opposite side of the barrels. I looked the stage over and I saw no one and I even looked behind the barrels from part way uprange. The paster was just in a location where I didn't see him.
At the make ready command the shooter had seen him and told me someone was down range. I always use fairly loud range commands and the paster jumped out from behind the barrels waving his arms. Yeah I felt like a idiot but it was a real eye opener and learning moment. Most of the clubs I shoot at have see thru walls now but I have still seen the make ready command given while people were down range.

RO's are human and humans make mistakes.
I have looked right at a target and seen 1A and 1C hit and called 2A hits to the scorer and I have seen many other RO's do the same. A scoring error is nothing like a safety error but an error none the less.
USPSA recommends 2 RO's on a stage 1 Running a timer and another on the clipboard(Kindle/Nook). We have enough trouble finding 1 RO per stage let alone 2 and the RO and score keeper have to shoot also.

While it is easy to dump on this RO and I'm not defending him but let's look at it a little differently.
As a RO on a stage let's think about what the RO does.
You try to make sure the stage is reset and clear. While it is the RO job to do this how many time has a swinger or drop turner forgotten to get set? How many times has a target forgotten to get pasted? It is not the RO's job to paste the target or reset the targets it is EVERYONES job to do this.
RO makes sure the shooter loads and makes ready safely.
RO is supposed to know what division the shooters is in so they can count shots to make sure they are following the rules.
RO watches to make sure competitor doesn't shoot outside of the shooting area.
RO watches to see if competitor keeps finger out of trigger guard while moving and reloading.
RO watches to make sure competitor doesn't sweep themself during the course of fire.
RO watches to make sure the competitor doesn't break the 180 while moving thru the course of fire.
RO watches to make sure the competitor engages all the targets so penalties can be applied if they fail to shoot at one of them.
RO has to be aware of a competitor that might retreat uprange to shoot a target they forgot and stay out of their way.
RO has to make sure competitor clears gun and holsters in a safe manner when they are finished.
RO has to walk the range and call out the hits on the targets and make scoring decisions on hits.
RO gets called A "Range Nazi" when they make a call the shooter doesn't like.
Oh yeah RO gets to shoot also. I've had a squad before that when it was my turn to shoot I laid the timer down and went to change glasses and waited in the start position for someone to pick up the timer and after I shot I picked up my moonclips and went to change my glasses back and the timer was laying right back where I left it waiting on me.
Most squads do pitch in and work but every once in a while.
The shooters only have to worry about and concentrate for about a minute a stage while the RO tries their best to do it 8-15 times per stage.
While the RO is doing all the above the scorekeeper is calling out the shooting order and making sure they have the right persons page up to start the scoring.

In the meantime the rest of the squad is under the shelter in the shade or staying dry. They are laughing, talking about their new gun or deer hunting or something cool.
Would it be to much to ask for EVERYONE to help watch for things like someone downrange?
All the RO's I know do the job as best they can but they are human and mistakes happen. The more people involved the less likely it is to happen.
We are fellow competitors and love our sport the least we can do is watch out for one another.

This is a Volunteer sport and EVERYONE needs to help not just paste and reset the stage but help the RO and score keeper. Watch for someone down range, take the timer and ask someone to show you what to do. Take the Kindle/Nook and ask someone to show you how to do it.

To those that are not competitors what happened in the video is eye opening and could have been a lot worse. Every weekend competitors shoot 1000's of stages world wide with no problems or drama.

If you want unsafe gun handling go to a public range and look around.
Bring your gun to a match and shoot with us. You will have fun become addicted like lots of us.
See you on the range *but NOT downrange*

 

[Rob377]

Great post Paul!

 

[Slawburger]

Great post Paul!

Agreed, but I must spread some rep around.

 

[rvb]

while it is also obvious that something went wrong this time, I'm not going to play the blame game because ANYONE that has ROed before could see how this could happen. In just the Last 3 years I have seen RO's give the "Make Ready" command while people were down range probably a dozen times.

wow, I've probably seen it only half-dozen times in ~15 yrs...
I don't think I ever saw the gun get loaded before situation was realized.
once I was the guy down range (only guy on squad pasting so I was attentive to what was going on, realizing those are the situations when bad things happen.... when I heard the LAMR command I started yelling STOP STOP and ran out where I could be seen).

I agree no one is perfect, as much as we try to be. That's why I also feel everyone needs to take on some of that responsibility. Belts/suspenders in addition to one very over-worked pants button... 'cause no one wants that single point of failure to let loose.

you mention incidents in the work place... there's usually "root cause," but there's also usually "contributing factors."

As a tangent, I think the electronic scoring has helped free up the 2nd RO to watch the stage/shooter, because now he doesn't have to spend that time adding hits. I know I feel much more in tune to what's going on, can better watch for procedurals, stage issues, etc now w/ the tablets. And on that thought, that's why I don't like the 2nd RO to score behind the shooter, they should be watching the action...

-rvb