Guardsmen Training as LEO's Again: "Urban Exercises"

[INRanger]

As for where, there are only so many urban training facilities to go around and the National Guard is a very low priority. I believe the unit in question was simply trying to train their troops. I don't think they thought about how it would look and be misconstrued. They should have but didn't hence canceled. I didn't have to worry about "blowing capital" to paraphrase because we had the facilities for training. I don't believe the National Guard do or at least enough of them. Any NG soldiers please correct me if I'm wrong. I was not trying to defend their CONOP as a good idea per se. But I don't believe it was training in America for America, simply training. They are training for LEO ops because the are performing LEO ops. They train here to fight there. Now on to the WWII debacle. We do not train like we did for WWII beacause we are not fighting WWII. We train for urban warfare differently because of the lessons those other conflicts taught us. Those that faught in WWII did it quite abit differently than those of WWI. That does have a historical precedent. Now the NGs have been used to disarm civilians before it was an extreme circumstance, unfortunate and wrong. If that "next step" does come about and I truly fear it might, see you in the resistance.

 

[techres]

They are training for LEO ops because the are performing LEO ops. They train here to fight there. Now on to the WWII debacle. We do not train like we did for WWII beacause we are not fighting WWII. We train for urban warfare differently because of the lessons those other conflicts taught us. Those that faught in WWII did it quite abit differently than those of WWI. That does have a historical precedent.

You have me curious now! Are you performing LEO ops simply because there is no other LEO on the ground and you get to fill that role no matter your MOS? Is this a part of the counter insurgency plans/system? When are you expected to play "cop" when you are a soldier and serving in theatre "over there"? (A general question, not one specific enough to bother OPSEC)

 

[INRanger]

that about sums it up actually. The local "police forces" are inept and crooked as hell. And it is not like your giving parking tickets. They heart of counter insurgency is "hearts and minds" if you kick in every door and slam people around then you will quickly loose the support of the populace. If you treat everyone like they are the enemy then they will become the enemy. That translates to more dead Americans. This lesson we learned from the British in Malaya. The only way to defeat an insurgency is to take away the most effective weapon they possess, the people. Only then can you find them, fix them and destroy them. I am in Loogootee if you want we could have lunch in say Bedford. I promise you will leave with an education.

 

[m39fan]

Why are people throwing a fit over a training exercise when we have Muscatatuck? Muscatatuck Urban Training Center (MUTC) > HOME

From their website: "MUTC is a consortium of governmental, public and private entities that are pooling their unique capabilities in order to provide the most realistic training experience possible. Training that can be tailored to replicate both foreign and domestic scenarios...."

 

[techres]

Why are people throwing a fit over a training exercise when we have Muscatatuck? Muscatatuck Urban Training Center (MUTC) > HOME

From their website: "MUTC is a consortium of governmental, public and private entities that are pooling their unique capabilities in order to provide the most realistic training experience possible. Training that can be tailored to replicate both foreign and domestic scenarios...."

The difference is twofold:

1. In the OP the mission placed REAL troops in a REAL town with REAL civilians. That is problem #1.
2. The mission was a US one in which US troops performed a US LEO task. That is problem #2.

In MUTC problem # 1 does not occur, plain and simple. You might get problem #2 if word gets out that they are planning ops and practicing them which would be contradictory to custom, law or Constitution should they be used.

But more than anything, problem #1 is where my big warning bells go off. There should not be a situation in which armed troops are roaming my streets and knocking on my door asking to come inside. That should not happen even in training. More than that, my kids should not end up expecting that situation to arise as a norm of life.

Would I welcome troops on my street in a post SHTF situation? Of course, that so long as they were here to help and not to make a bad situation worse. And I hope that their current and future training is in line with that same goal.

 

[Ashkelon]

The difference is twofold:

1. In the OP the mission placed REAL troops in a REAL town with REAL civilians. That is problem #1.
2. The mission was a US one in which US troops performed a US LEO task. That is problem #2.

In MUTC problem # 1 does not occur, plain and simple. You might get problem #2 if word gets out that they are planning ops and practicing them which would be contradictory to custom, law or Constitution should they be used.

But more than anything, problem #1 is where my big warning bells go off. There should not be a situation in which armed troops are roaming my streets and knocking on my door asking to come inside. That should not happen even in training. More than that, my kids should not end up expecting that situation to arise as a norm of life.

Would I welcome troops on my street in a post SHTF situation? Of course, that so long as they were here to help and not to make a bad situation worse. And I hope that their current and future training is in line with that same goal.

Very well stated, Techres, I could not agree more. +1

 

[Joe Williams]

It is a shame the exercise was cancelled.

The tin foil hat crowd has denied soldiers getting ready to deploy training they needed. The paranoia and fear is a shame. The folks who got this exercise cancelled have helped kill American soldiers. But none of you will take responsibility for your actions, instead you'll attack me for saying the truth.

But you HAVE helped kill Americans, because you are so damned scared. Americans aren't supposed to be scared of everything that moves, you know.

 

[HICKMAN]

The difference is twofold:

1. In the OP the mission placed REAL troops in a REAL town with REAL civilians. That is problem #1.

Our Green Berets train in a REAL town with REAL civilians in an exercise before they graduate.... been doing it for years.

 

[HICKMAN]

It is a shame the exercise was cancelled.

The tin foil hat crowd has denied soldiers getting ready to deploy training they needed. The paranoia and fear is a shame. The folks who got this exercise have helped kill American soldiers. But none of you will take responsibility for your actions, instead you'll attack me for saying the truth.

But you HAVE helped kill Americans, because you are so damned scared. Americans aren't supposed to be scared of everything that moves, you know.

 

[jeremy]

Can anyone name the unit(s) that participated in disarmament of the people during Katrina?

 

[jeremy]

Having read the article I understand what is going on here. The unit commander was attempting to get as much training in a long weekend as he could. He was trying to save money and time. By training in his local area he gains 2 full training days that he would normally lose due to loading the convoys, convoy times, draw billets, unloading the convoy, and beginning training. Just to repeat this cycle on the final day to return to home station. So instead of supporting this young and enterprising Captain for trying to both save time and money, you instead crucify him. Thank you for making it harder to teach the cherries how to do their job safely. Not to mention trying to actually get time at any of the training facilities is almost impossible due to the need of units who are in route to harms way continually bumping you off the list.

What this Captain is trying to do is train his troops on the current Tactics, Techniques and Procedures that we are using to win in far away places like Iraq and Afghanistan. By fully training his troops he is attempting to bring as many of them back to their families as possible. Was it a good idea, possibly, was it well done no.

The reason for training as an LEO is because the LEO’s in that region of the world are corrupt, incompetent, underequipped, or just plain criminals or possibly some combination of all. So if we are to win we must learn to do their jobs. And let me tell you what, on the job training really sucks for an experienced soldier let alone someone new. Training as you know is something that is on going and continuous. For a soldier it is ever evolving. Always fluid due to the fact we are constantly attempting to stay two steps ahead of whoever we are fighting.

The Guard and the Military will be the last choice in disarming and attempting to control the people here. Our local LEO’s and laws will do that far more effectively and are less apt to rebel against the idea of doing such. As they will be just doing their job enforcing the law. I would be more worried about the LEA’s training to be tactical police, than soldiers training as LEO. The difference is huge.

 

[jeremy]

Why are people throwing a fit over a training exercise when we have Muscatatuck? Muscatatuck Urban Training Center (MUTC) > HOME

From their website: "MUTC is a consortium of governmental, public and private entities that are pooling their unique capabilities in order to provide the most realistic training experience possible. Training that can be tailored to replicate both foreign and domestic scenarios...."

The domestic exercise part of this is the FBI, DEA, LAPD, LAFD, and various other CIVILIAN agencies using this place.

 

[jeremy]

I am an Idiot and double posted! So this spot is completely worthless. Except for me being able to rattle away totally aimlessly.

 

[DodgebyDave]

It is a shame the exercise was cancelled.

The tin foil hat crowd has denied soldiers getting ready to deploy training they needed. The paranoia and fear is a shame. The folks who got this exercise cancelled have helped kill American soldiers. But none of you will take responsibility for your actions, instead you'll attack me for saying the truth.

But you HAVE helped kill Americans, because you are so damned scared. Americans aren't supposed to be scared of everything that moves, you know.

With that logic, everyone that gasses a car today killed an American.

After all, why are we involved in the Middle East to begin with. It sure as hell isn't to kill bad guys. If it was freedom and justice that was the motivation I can think of a few small towns on both sides of the border with Mexico that could use a few heroes.....

Wait? No Oil? Plenty of drugs and money though.

Or is there another motive for training at home? That is the question to begin with.

Or is it? There is also the question of trust. Quite frankly, You are asking me to trust a Dog and Pony Show that couldn't graduate Clown College.




C'mon man. If you ask me, the tin foil wears much better than the sand and you get less **** in your ears

 

[techres]

It is a shame the exercise was cancelled.

The tin foil hat crowd has denied soldiers getting ready to deploy training they needed. The paranoia and fear is a shame. The folks who got this exercise cancelled have helped kill American soldiers. But none of you will take responsibility for your actions, instead you'll attack me for saying the truth.

But you HAVE helped kill Americans, because you are so damned scared. Americans aren't supposed to be scared of everything that moves, you know.

I, personally, did not cancel this exercise so I cannot own it. I will say that if this was requested, in the same form, in my town tomorrow that I would oppose it and would then take ownership of it.

I, personally, have not killed an American soldier or aided and abetted any enemy of this country. The exercise described above was ill considered and poorly planned in my mind. Neither would this exercise have made or broke the training of soldiers going overseas. I simply disagree with you there.

I, personally, do not plan to attack you or your opinion in the least. I just do not attack people just because I disagree with them.

I, personally, am fully aware that tin foil hatters are extreme and annoying for those who are trying to get XYZ done. The funny thing is that these situations are not just about the next year, the next five years, or even ten. They are about the next generation and the country we plan to leave our kids. The slope I fear is the one I am trying to stop. If we want to ratchet up the imagery, I think of tin foil hatters as canary's in cages. They help keep an eye on the borderlines and are often wrong - but on the rare occasion they are right.

I, personally, am absolutely willing to take responsibility for my actions, words, and positions - as I assume you are as well. Do not mistake my passion for my position as an attack on you. Good men can simply disagree, sometimes passionately. That does not change a thing.

As for fear, I, personally am not afraid of everything. I am afraid, however, that we are sliding towards a place I do not want to go, or leave to my kids. It is happening due to a willingness to shift power and norms out of fear of the war on terror. As people like to use the excuse, 9/11 changed everything. I find that to be an excuse used out of fear and paranoia in itself. So pass the plate, there's plenty for everyone.

Finally, I am all for military training. Do not misconstrue my position on that. I am just not for training of this kind, in this fashion, done on this scale. You want to argue specifics, that is fine - we can count angels on pinheads to find the tipping point of what is over the line and what is not.

Our Green Berets train in a REAL town with REAL civilians in an exercise before they graduate.... been doing it for years.

You have more information on that? I would like to see it. No, I am not going to make some calls and get the training cancelled. I just want to know the specifics of what you are talking about...

 

[INRanger]

The Guard and the Military will be the last choice in disarming and attempting to control the people here. Our local LEO’s and laws will do that far more effectively and are less apt to rebel against the idea of doing such. As they will be just doing their job enforcing the law. I would be more worried about the LEA’s training to be tactical police, than soldiers training as LEO. The difference is huge.[/quote]

Well said. The exercise in question is called Robin Sage it takes place in the norther 1/3 of North Carolina. SF are not the only unit to train in American cities but they are the most noticeable.

 

[CulpeperMM]

Those that would trade a little Liberty for safety shall have neither safety nor Liberty.

The American people's biggest enemy is the State. Always encroaching on the
Liberty of its people. There are those in Washington that would love to be able to use National Guard units to search for dissidents. Anyone that opposes abortions, the income tax, or growing State apparatus would be fair game.

To revoke your our 3rd, 4th, 5th amendment rights so some guardsmen can get training is stupid.

I am glad it was cancelled, and thankful there are enough people willing to speak out against this type of thing. (BTW. we've had this same discussion in another thread. Training For What?)

Thank you, techres, for your vigilance.

 

[jeremy]

Loosen the hats guys your tinfoil is starting to cut off circulation.

 

[Joe Williams]

Those that would trade a little Liberty for safety shall have neither safety nor Liberty.

The American people's biggest enemy is the State. Always encroaching on the
Liberty of its people. There are those in Washington that would love to be able to use National Guard units to search for dissidents. Anyone that opposes abortions, the income tax, or growing State apparatus would be fair game.

To revoke your our 3rd, 4th, 5th amendment rights so some guardsmen can get training is stupid.

I am glad it was cancelled, and thankful there are enough people willing to speak out against this type of thing. (BTW. we've had this same discussion in another thread. Training For What?)

Thank you, techres, for your vigilance.

Please, show me ANYTHING that says ANYBODY was going to have ANY rights revoked. This is just an example of paranoia outweighing reality. Factually, the ONLY people that were going to be involved were VOLUNTEERS. Those who didn't want to play didn't have to play. They could tell their neighbors to go pound sand all they wanted.

Too many Americans need to grow a pair. Seriously. For the record, I oppose abortion, Obama, and the evergrowing power of the federal government. But I'm also capable of not pissing my pants in fear when our friends and neighbors need some realistic training before we send them in harm's way to do exactly the type of tasks this exercise involved.

 

[INRanger]

The whole bit about killing Americans is a little far. The big problem here is that people that have not served or gone into harms way simply cannot understand. The need for realistic training is paramount you cannot get the same level of realism with role players. The desire for real civilians acting like real civilians is totally understandable. They were asking for volunteers, it's not like they were going to go kick in your door, mess up you wife's carpet and call it training. They were wanting civilian volunteers to act like civilians and interact with the soldiers, providing intel both good and bad that soldiers would then have to interpret and act on to find there target. Just like they will have to do for real in a hostile nation. I can assure you they would have left the town in question undamaged. I find it a little disturbing how little you understand those that defend this nation and what that entails. Maybe you should think about my offer of an education.