Gov't power to shut down churches

[IndyDave1776]

Who is us? Christianity has reformed (not just the Mormons). No reason other religions cannot.



Do you know what sati is?

It was deeply woven into the fabric of Hindu society and my people forced them to stop.

No reason not to do the same with jihad.

You say Christianity has reformed. The extent to which it has been reformed is returning to the teachings of Christ rather than those of politician Popes. Conversely, the example of Mohammed is exactly what we would need Islam to move away from in order to gain the same net result.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Conversely, the example of Mohammed is exactly what we would need Islam to move away from in order to gain the same net result.

One simply reinterprets what Mo said. No need to "move away".

No more violence against others. Jihad mean inner struggle and inner struggle only. Renounce the verse of the sword and heavy on the no compunction in religion.

Just take the Woodruff Manifesto and re-word it with cites from the Quran and the Hadith.

 

[IndyDave1776]

One simply reinterprets what Mo said. No need to "move away".

No more violence against others. Jihad mean inner struggle and inner struggle only. Renounce the verse of the sword and heavy on the no compunction in religion.

Just take the Woodruff Manifesto and re-word it with cites from the Quran and the Hadith.

How do you reinterpret his habit of killing people?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

How do you reinterpret his habit of killing people?

No need to reinterpret it, just denounce it, like polygamy or sati.

 

[jamil]

Who is us? Christianity has reformed (not just the Mormons). No reason other religions cannot.



Do you know what sati is?

It was deeply woven into the fabric of Hindu society and my people forced them to stop.

No reason not to do the same with jihad.

We? You didn't have anything to do with Christian reforms. And non-Christians had nothing to do with Christian reforms. However the point that those religions did reform mainstream beliefs is not lost on me. People who recognized the need to change changed it from within. Does Islam THINK it needs to reform? BBIs didn't seem to think so.

How do you reinterpret his habit of killing people?

Never underestimate human's ability to make a document say what it doesn't say. All it takes are willing ears.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Never underestimate human's ability to make a document say what it doesn't say. All it takes are willing ears.

You mean like ignoring plain text and finding anything and everything in the blank spaces between the lines of the Constitution?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

And non-Christians had nothing to do with Christian reforms.

Non-Mormons reformed Mormonism.

Non-Japanese reformed the worship of the Emperor.

Non-Hindus reformed the practice of Sati.

Non-Muslims must reform Islam and end jihad.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Does Islam THINK it needs to reform? BBIs didn't seem to think so.

Because it is forbidden to do so.

The retrovirus must come from the outside.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Non-Mormons reformed Mormonism.

Non-Japanese reformed the worship of the Emperor.

Non-Hindus reformed the practice of Sati.

Non-Muslims must reform Islam and end jihad.

So, does this amount to channeling the spirit of Commodore Decatur?

 

[jamil]

Non-Mormons reformed Mormonism.

Non-Japanese reformed the worship of the Emperor.

Non-Hindus reformed the practice of Sati.

The point was, it's all well and good that there was incentives from the outside, but the believer had to decide to change.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

So, does this amount to channeling the spirit of Commodore Decatur?

Unnecessary. If they want anything from us, they renounce jihad. We introduce the retro virus of anti-jihadism into their nations with books, plays, movies (after the elections in Saudi Arabia they are discussing having movies and plays in SA!), popular culture. We need to support elements inside Dar al-Islam that are friendly to the idea of undermining jihad.

We did this in the Cold War to undermine the faith of the people in Communism. It is akin to dripping acid on a metal frame. Eventually it will collapse but it is far less violent and destructive than the alternatives.

No more jihad=no more sending other peoples sons to fight. No more jihad=peace and tranquility in the CONUS.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The point was, it's all well and good that there was incentives from the outside, but the believer had to decide to change.

Perhaps another way of looking at the same point is that you can force outward compliance, but you cannot force inward change.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Perhaps another way of looking at the same point is that you can force outward compliance, but you cannot force inward change.

We have in the past.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Unnecessary. If they want anything from us, they renounce jihad. We introduce the retro virus of anti-jihadism into their nations with books, plays, movies (after the elections in Saudi Arabia they are discussing having movies and plays in SA!), popular culture. We need to support elements inside Dar al-Islam that are friendly to the idea of undermining jihad.

We did this in the Cold War to undermine the faith of the people in Communism. It is akin to dripping acid on a metal frame. Eventually it will collapse but it is far less violent and destructive than the alternatives.

No more jihad=no more sending other peoples sons to fight. No more jihad=peace and tranquility in the CONUS.

OK, so the ComBloc collapsed, but now the very same thing is taking root here and getting stronger every day, just as Khrushchev promised us decades ago, and just as Joe McCarthy warned us was happening, only to be demonized in spite of there being clear evidence that he was correct, much like what we see in today's atmosphere of 'political correctness'.

 

[BugI02]

Non-Mormons reformed Mormonism.

Non-Japanese reformed the worship of the Emperor.

Non-Hindus reformed the practice of Sati.

Non-Muslims must reform Islam and end jihad.

At the point of a sword. Just want to be clear what you advocate here and by what methods.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I am going to step out on a limb and address the fact that I see multiple issues here. While Kirk's turn of phrase may have been, well, less than diplomatic, I am understanding that is point is more along the lines of mainstream LDS turning away from polygamy for the purpose of peacefully coexisting with the larger society as opposed to being coerced or reeducated out of their basic system of belief, but then you still have Warren Jeffs & Co.

Once again, from an outsider's perspective on much of anything, I am left with the book and the commands and example of the founder as my foundation for understanding. The unfortunate consequence of this is that it does not account for the fact that religion is a lot like Linux so far as it is an open-source phenomenon for the most part and with most elements of any given religion, if you ask 10 practitioners about a certain point of doctrine, you may well get 11 different answers, mostly hinging on how seriously a given person takes his faith, how literally he interprets his book, and how much importance he places on emulating the founder of his religion. If you have any doubt about this, try instigating a conversation on faith in practice between, say, a UCC member and a fundamental Baptist.

The problem, I suppose, is how to form a general conclusion about a collection of participants who are not necessarily standard, uniform, or monolithic, especially when some of them take views that are definitely detrimental to the health and well-being of most everyone else.

Which essentially means Kirk believes the minority of terrorists are the "mainstream" and the vast majority who are not are...what I'm not sure. Islam doesn't need reform because mainstream already IS peaceful coexistence. We don't need Kirkaria. That's a recipe for MORE extremism. I'd spin that into a war on Islam in a heartbeat if I wanted to recruit extremists.

I'd also encourage you to read Karen Armstrong's Brief History of Islam. Sometimes killing people is necessary. That is part of Islam, and frankly seems pretty realistic if you believe in self defense. Islam has rules for war, treatment of innocents, etc.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

At the point of a sword.

Does not have to be.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We don't need Kirkaria.

We most assuredly do.

Which essentially means Kirk believes the minority of terrorists are the "mainstream"

No, but they all cite jihad. Reform jihad and we defang their motivation for terror.

 

[BugI02]

3 for 3 so far

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'd also encourage you to read Karen Armstrong's Brief History of Islam. Sometimes killing people is necessary. That is part of Islam, and frankly seems pretty realistic if you believe in self defense. Islam has rules for war, treatment of innocents, etc.

Hopefully I will have time to pursue this.

How do you deal with things like Tripoli and Tunis capturing our merchant mariners and doing things like running them through with hooks and hanging them over the city walls? Please understand that my goal is a broadened perspective rather than dumping an incendiary question in your lap. From my perspective, this is representative of Islam operating without adequate external pressure to contain it.