Gov't power to shut down churches

[BehindBlueI's]

Well, for one thing, it would provide a basis for shutting down a church.

Another point is that it is one arrow in the quiver of government penalties.

But, that's really somewhat beside the point. Is there any reason that would justify a church/mosque/synagogue being shut down by the gov't? Thats as opposed to arresting people for criminal acts who are leaders of the church. Those are 2 different things.

If you arrest the right people, is there still a reason to shut down the church? If you arrest enough people, will it not collapse due to lack of membership?

Shutting down the church remains feckless. I can still freely associate with everyone, can I not? With social media, can I not simply rent a dining hall the next holy day and twitter everyone where "church" is this week?

Again I ask you what you would do if someone shuttered your church? What would you do if your preacher/priest called you and said church was at Golden Corral's banquet room the next Sunday?

 

[IndyDave1776]

This is a good time to remember the effects of unintended consequences. Never hand the government a club that you do not want hit with yourself, because you can rest assured that when you hand the government that club with which to hit someone else, you WILL find yourself on the receiving end. Banning a religious institution is much like banning guns with the intent of actually stopping crime. The only solution is to identify dangerous individuals and deal with them appropriately. As BBI wisely observed, if you have an institution that is corrupt enough to justify being shut down, and you deal with those engaged in illegal activity individually, there will be no one left to perpetuate the institution.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Cleaver, Danton, Jesus, Juarez, King, Lenin, Lumumba, Luther, Paine, Pierce, Robespierre et al

I see a few distinct differences in there that were revolutionaries, and to the best of my information, didn't kill people as part of there "revolution."

 

[edporch]

If members of a mosque are engaging in terrorist activities and the congregation is covering for them, it has now become a criminal enterprise and not a house of worship.
The same thing would apply to a church, synagogue, etc.

 

[T.Lex]

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about the US Government shutting down a mosque since it is not simply a church and Islam is not simply a religion.

Islam is a religion.

Islamofascism (for lack of a better word) is a political movement.

I believe we will eventually see USSC decisions based on this as the Muslims will not relent and eventually there will be attempts to drive them out or at least underground.

If Islam is driven "underground," that will truly be a sad day for the US.

If you arrest the right people, is there still a reason to shut down the church? If you arrest enough people, will it not collapse due to lack of membership?

Yes - that's kinda my point.

I think the French approach is far too heavy-handed to be successful. They are attacking the strawman.

Shutting down the church remains feckless. I can still freely associate with everyone, can I not? With social media, can I not simply rent a dining hall the next holy day and twitter everyone where "church" is this week?

Again I ask you what you would do if someone shuttered your church? What would you do if your preacher/priest called you and said church was at Golden Corral's banquet room the next Sunday?

If I got that call, I'd try to remember if I converted to being Baptist.

 

[jamil]

That seems pretty straight forward...one is fighting for freedom on conscience, free exercise of religion of your choice (or none at all); the other is fighting for one religion to be tolerated and to rule the governmental affairs. That's pretty distinctive to me.

The government should never have the power to shut down a church.

The Government should absolutely have the power to shut down a criminal organization masquerading as a church.

Word.

 

[historian]

If I got that call, I'd try to remember if I converted to being Baptist.

It truly is the best!

 

[JettaKnight]

Will Americans support government spying on sermons and their reactions in the crowd at these institutions?

You mean like to those sermons televised, podcasted or livestreamed voluntarily?

 

[JettaKnight]

I thought Amazon collected state sales tax now.

If your order comes out of Indiana.

For most businesses if they have a retail (or any?) presence in Indiana, they collect sales tax for sales to Indiana regardless of point of origin.

For Amazon, they collect sales tax for sales to Indiana regardless of point of origin.

 

[HoughMade]

The government should never have the power to shut down a church.

The Government should absolutely have the power to shut down a criminal organization masquerading as a church.

Agreed. i just have a few worries about where the lines are drawn and who is drawing them.

 

[indiucky]

What would you do if your preacher/priest called you and said church was at Golden Corral's banquet room the next Sunday?

Fast Friday and Saturday and then see what kind of dent I could put on that buffet come Sunday?

"Look at that man Frank...It's people like him that give buffets a bad name......"

 

[indiucky]

Agreed. i just have a few worries about where the lines are drawn and who is drawing them.

As long as it the same guys who drew these lines we should be okay.......

They were finally able to translate the Nazca lines....

"Send Lawyers, Guns, and Money...The S*&^ has hit the fan...."

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

For most businesses if they have a retail (or any?) presence in Indiana, they collect sales tax for sales to Indiana regardless of point of origin.

For Amazon, they collect sales tax for sales to Indiana regardless of point of origin.

I'd have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure I've ordered stuff from Amazon recently and didn't get charged.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

What would you do if your preacher/priest called you and said church was at Golden Corral's banquet room the next Sunday?

Hey! The Bedford GC has a good breakfast buffet on the weekends. (On Saturday anyway...I think they started doing on Sundays).

 

[BugI02]

As long as it the same guys who drew these lines we should be okay.......

They were finally able to translate the Nazca lines....

"Send Lawyers, Guns, and Money...The S*&^ has hit the fan...."

Nice WZ reference

 

[ruger1800]

France has many issues with their Muslim community and this will NOT help. It will likely only make it worse.

This, in case someone missed the boat, Islam, and the Koran = violence

 

[IndyDave1776]

Islam is a religion.

Islamofascism (for lack of a better word) is a political movement.

Not entirely true. One of the more difficult things for the western mind to wrap itself around is that Islam amounts to a comprehensive life system which includes religion in the sense we generally accept, governance and law, society, and basically every aspect of life. The extent to which this is rigidly followed and how it may or may not be followed can vary significantly, but the concept of the separation of religion and state, or a secular government is a foreign concept within the paradigm of by-the-book Islam. This is one of the reasons that people born in Islamic societies tend not to play nicely with westerners.

 

[ruger1800]

Not entirely true. One of the more difficult things for the western mind to wrap itself around is that Islam amounts to a comprehensive life system which includes religion in the sense we generally accept, governance and law, society, and basically every aspect of life. The extent to which this is rigidly followed and how it may or may not be followed can vary significantly, but the concept of the separation of religion and state, or a secular government is a foreign concept within the paradigm of by-the-book Islam. This is one of the reasons that people born in Islamic societies tend not to play nicely with westerners.

They have no tolerance , not even for themselves, Saudi Arabia is a classic example, caning, beheading, female organ mutilation,slaves ect bunch of sickees

 

[CampingJosh]

I'd have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure I've ordered stuff from Amazon recently and didn't get charged.

When Amazon is the seller, they charge sales tax in Indiana. However, lots of the items available for purchase on Amazon are being sold by another company--even many items that are eligible for Prime.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Not entirely true. One of the more difficult things for the western mind to wrap itself around is that Islam amounts to a comprehensive life system which includes religion in the sense we generally accept, governance and law, society, and basically every aspect of life. The extent to which this is rigidly followed and how it may or may not be followed can vary significantly, but the concept of the separation of religion and state, or a secular government is a foreign concept within the paradigm of by-the-book Islam. This is one of the reasons that people born in Islamic societies tend not to play nicely with westerners.

The "Islamic government" model is as unrealistic as communism, and for the same reasons. It requires vast numbers of people who forego self interest on too many levels. Most of us will forego self interest in limited things, we'll donate to charity, serve in dangerous jobs, etc. but even then we expect some reward, be it financial, prestige, or just 'feeling good about ourselves' to motivate that. There's never been a true implementation of communism because there's always been someone in authority to tilt the system their way and a host of people not in authority to cheat and work around the system. Capitalism works, not because it's the best system, but because it's the best system that works with human nature. Similarly there has never been an Islamic government on any real scale. Perhaps you could argue certain small tribes have successfully used it, but that's the issue. It doesn't scale. It's fine for a group of literal camel herders migrating through the desert, but it's ban on bureaucracy, for example, prohibit it from working in a complex modern society with a large population. So, you end up with everything from dictatorships to democracies in Islamic countries, but there is no "Islamic government". If you look into what it actually is, it's an amazing fantasy. Essentially an egalitarian society with local judges to solve disputes among citizens, a strict adherence to the law because the law belongs to everyone, and law stemming from God. The issue has always been who gets to decide what God said, since he's been pretty quiet when we have questions. The lack of self interest that makes communism unworkable with real human nature also puts a real Islamic government out of reach. It essentially requires people who do not need governance, who share resources with all completely equitably, who humbly accept the will of God and agree on what that will is, etc. It's actually not terribly far off from the Christian idea of Heaven, everyone gets along, everyone gets to spend some quality time with God, etc. In short, it's an Ideal, not a practical option.

I'd also argue that people born in Islamic societies tend to play as nicely as anyone else with outsiders. That includes both the good and the bad that statement implies, from enslaving to allying with.