Giving yourself PERMISSION to use deadly force

[finity]

Great posts guys.

When I started this thread, my intent was that I am trying to figure out how I can condition myself mentally to be more prepared to do what needs to be done should the situation arise.

I rarely pack, and that only when I am going to the big city with my family to protect. I realize that not carrying most of the time is not good training for the times that I do,

I am just trying to be more sure of myself, because like some have said here, If I pause at a critical time, I or those that I love could end up dead.

Aside from realistic training (I've heard joining the miltary would be good realistic training ) or real-life experiences, the only way to condition your mind to be prepared to kill in defense of yourself or others is to JUST TELL YOURSELF YOU ARE READY TO. Over & over as necessary until you have NO DOUBTS you could do it if you had to.

Just decide to be ready to do it if the time comes. Honestly, that's the best you can hope for until you've had to do it.

You could also try to figure out the reason(s) that you would hesitate in that situation then justify those erroneous reasons away.

For example, if you are afraid of legal repercussions then learn the self-defense laws & make sure you respond within those guidelines. If it's a religious reason then know that most religions allow you to take a life in self-defense.

If you are just repulsed by the thought of hurting another person, NO MATTER WHAT THE SITUATION & CAN'T OVERCOME THAT FEELING (there really are people that feel that way), then as many others have said, maybe carrying a defensive weapon isn't right for you as you could be in more danger than you would be otherwise.

 

[Glock21]

Johnny,

I've kind of been in and out of this topic, so I may have missed the answer to my question - if so, please excuse me - but, is your concern really with the actual moment of shooting someone, or is it more with how you will live with yourself after you shoot someone? Perhaps it's both?

I'm just wondering what the main issue is in order to formulate the best reply I can.

 

[Joe Williams]

This is a rather old video, shown in a lot of police training classes. It was reportedly shown at the insistence of the deputy's family, who hoped to that their loss would help save the lives of others.

Warning up front: It's graphic, hard to watch and listen to. The deputy dies, shot dead on a traffic stop. He was well trained, a good deputy, but when the time came, he just waited too long to open fire. I think I would have fired about 20 seconds before the deputy did. Perhaps, he just didn't want to kill another human being, perhaps he just couldn't believe that it was actually happening. It was just a routine traffic stop, a speeding ticket. I don't know what was going through the deputy's mind, but perhaps the video will show why you HAVE to be prepared to kill. The shooter shot the cop multiple times, aiming for arms, legs, the periphery not protected by body armor. He walked away, reloaded or cleared a jam, and came back and did it some more, before firing the final shot into the deputy's eye. It was heartless, cold blooded, calculating. The deputy fought to the bitter end, but he just waited too long.

How do you condition yourself to be ready? Watch this video, be aware there are people like that out there, and what the consequences are of being wrong about what you have to do.

Police Videos, Law Enforcement Videos, Taser Videos and Police Pursuit Videos - PoliceLink

 

[mk2ja]

This is a rather old video, shown in a lot of police training classes. It was reportedly shown at the insistence of the deputy's family, who hoped to that their loss would help save the lives of others.

Warning up front: It's graphic, hard to watch and listen to. The deputy dies, shot dead on a traffic stop. He was well trained, a good deputy, but when the time came, he just waited too long to open fire. I think I would have fired about 20 seconds before the deputy did. Perhaps, he just didn't want to kill another human being, perhaps he just couldn't believe that it was actually happening. It was just a routine traffic stop, a speeding ticket. I don't know what was going through the deputy's mind, but perhaps the video will show why you HAVE to be prepared to kill. The shooter shot the cop multiple times, aiming for arms, legs, the periphery not protected by body armor. He walked away, reloaded or cleared a jam, and came back and did it some more, before firing the final shot into the deputy's eye. It was heartless, cold blooded, calculating. The deputy fought to the bitter end, but he just waited too long.

How do you condition yourself to be ready? Watch this video, be aware there are people like that out there, and what the consequences are of being wrong about what you have to do.

Police Videos, Law Enforcement Videos, Taser Videos and Police Pursuit Videos - PoliceLink

Wow. I agree, Joe, he should have fired much sooner than he did. I saw in the comments that the deceased was only 22 years old. I'm 22! Yikes. Is it possible that he wasn't as willing to open fire when he should have due to being less experienced than other deputies?

Follow up — please tell me that SOB was caught and sentenced to capital punishment for that.

 

[NESEPer]

OK. Here it goes. This is my first post to this forum. This has been quite a thread.
I am nearly 60 years old. I have been a gun owner for a little over a year. I bought the weapon for self protection. When I put my money on the counter, I made the conscious decision to use deadly force if necessary. I may look at guns differently than many on this site. To me they are not for hunting, sporting or recreation, but are tools to do a very specific job. That job is to protect me and my family from people intent on forcing serious harm on us.
I served on a guide missile cruiser during the Vietnam War. I was designated by my commanding officer as a Tactical Action Officer. This means that I had weapons release authority to kill any incoming threat. As a result, I had to deal with the possibility of the taking of another human life. Unlike Jeremy, I did not have to “pull the trigger” (my words not his) and feel the last breath of a dying man. I hope I never do. But if I ever am in the situation that requires me to use deadly force, how I would feel about killing a man will not be a part of the decision process. That question has already been answered.
I do not understand how anyone can raise a loaded weapon and point it at a man without making that decision. The only question I will be evaluating is, “Does this situation warrant the use of deadly force?”

 

[Johnny C]

It s been a while since I looked at this thread, So I reread every post.

A few posts back, lock21 said:

"Johnny,

I've kind of been in and out of this topic, so I may have missed the answer to my question - if so, please excuse me - but, is your concern really with the actual moment of shooting someone, or is it more with how you will live with yourself after you shoot someone? Perhaps it's both?

I'm just wondering what the main issue is in order to formulate the best reply I can."


My answer would be: The moments preceeding the trigger pull

I wouldnt call myself a pacifist, but I know I dont want to hurt anyone, and I dont want to be in a fight. Heck, I have taken a punch and just walked away at times in the past.
I remember once when I was a senior in high school, someone ran by and punched me in the face. I was stunned, but mad as heck, so I cut through a hall and grabbed the fellow as he ran by the other hall. I grabbed his throat and slammed him against the wall and had my fist cocked and ready to bust his chops...but I didnt. I remember thinking "WHY? The only thing he injured was my pride, and I was just angry. Popping him in the face wouldnt solve anything." So I just let him go and I said "Your lucky."
How many people would relent like that? Probally not too many. Its pretty obvious to me that some folks here would call me a sissy or a coward for those kinds of actions.
Thats just 1 of many episodes in my life that has me wondering if I have it in me to pop a cap in a BG. Like I said in earlier posts, I rarely carry, but I want to figure out how to improve my mindset so I can do what needs to be done when it needs to be done.
Maybe I just havent been in a position where I thought the violence would be justified.
I did relate a story in another post where the first time I packed, I felt threatened by a man who was approaching me with what appeared to me to be ill intentions. Adrenaline started pumping and I grabbed the butt of my pistol as I warned him off. He took off so it was a non issue... but looking back, I DID have the intention of pulling my piece, he just buggered off before I had to.
So I don't know if they tells me anything or not.


I am rambling on here, so I 'll just post this as it sits.

 

[ThePope]

I made my mind up, after moments of doubt, that I could defend my life, and that of my family...I learned, I read, I asked questions, ENDlessly...still do.

I read this thread, and that thread, and will read more threads concerning this topic, because I need to learn, to see through others eyes, to learn how to have the attitude to NOT retreat, if I can help it, to help ME to be the one to defend them, if I need to.

By the time I have brandished a bat, or a rock, or a pistol, I have made up my mind to use it....and IF the B/G doesn't do SOMEthing to change my mind in the short frame of time between drawing, and taking up that trigger....he will be shot.

I hope to never have the need to do this, but I must, as a responsible carrier of a potentially deadly firearm, be SURE of my resolve to use it....or NOT to use it, if it comes to that .

Lots of good advice here, thanks folks, keep up the learning attitude, and shoot safely, shoot straight.

I am out ......

 

[Vanguard.45]

A few ideas

1. It never really struck me about what Col. Jeff Cooper meant by the term "Combat Mindset" until I began watching such films as "We Were Soldiers" or "Saving Private Ryan" as examples of actual combat. I have never had the privilege of serving my country in a war zone, so these are the examples I have whereby I can see that Cooper's term seems to imply to me the ability to cope with horrific situations and be able to act responsibly, decisively, and finally.

2. In studying the Old West, it seems the difference between the feared gunfighters and everyone else wasn't necessarily in their ability to shoot straighter or draw faster. It was in their ability to act without any hesitation. Sometimes that put them on the wrong side of the law, but they were alive at the end of the encounter. Not to say breaking the law and taking life is something to emulate. Just an observation which seems relevant.

3. And finally a quote from that great philosopher Josey Wales:

"Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."

Vanguard.45

 

[Glock21]

My answer would be: The moments preceeding the trigger pull

I wouldnt call myself a pacifist, but I know I dont want to hurt anyone, and I dont want to be in a fight. Heck, I have taken a punch and just walked away at times in the past.
I remember once when I was a senior in high school, someone ran by and punched me in the face. I was stunned, but mad as heck, so I cut through a hall and grabbed the fellow as he ran by the other hall. I grabbed his throat and slammed him against the wall and had my fist cocked and ready to bust his chops...but I didnt. I remember thinking "WHY? The only thing he injured was my pride, and I was just angry. Popping him in the face wouldnt solve anything." So I just let him go and I said "Your lucky."
How many people would relent like that? Probally not too many. Its pretty obvious to me that some folks here would call me a sissy or a coward for those kinds of actions.
Thats just 1 of many episodes in my life that has me wondering if I have it in me to pop a cap in a BG. Like I said in earlier posts, I rarely carry, but I want to figure out how to improve my mindset so I can do what needs to be done when it needs to be done.
Maybe I just havent been in a position where I thought the violence would be justified.
I did relate a story in another post where the first time I packed, I felt threatened by a man who was approaching me with what appeared to me to be ill intentions. Adrenaline started pumping and I grabbed the butt of my pistol as I warned him off. He took off so it was a non issue... but looking back, I DID have the intention of pulling my piece, he just buggered off before I had to.
So I don't know if they tells me anything or not.


I am rambling on here, so I 'll just post this as it sits.

Boy, there is a lot here....

First, I think it's always important in these conversations to differentiate between force and violence. We, as good guys, use FORCE to stop VIOLENCE. Violate is the root of violence, and criminals perpetrate violence. They violate the space and rights of others, we don't! What we do is use force to stop them from continued violence. It's a technicallity, but a very important one that seperates us from them!

Now, I would suggest that any sane person, who properly considers self defense, doesn't WANT to hurt or shoot anyone. There's about 1-2% of the human population which get joy from such activity, and we generally refer to them as "psychopaths". It's very normal and correct for you not to want to do this!

Defensive force, for perspectives sake, is best looked at as the lesser of two evils. It's not something any of us should glamorize or romanticize, but instead something we should accept as necessary under certain, very narrow, circumstances, and only engage in because not taking immediate force of action will result in the loss of innocent human life!

Like a doctor that has to remove the infected leg to save the rest of the body, we must act with force to stop violence being inflicted on the innocent (which may be ourselves personally.) It's not something we like to do, it's something we have to do.

When it comes to any individuals personal choices regarding defensive philosopy, or choice of tools, or when and where they carry such tools, it's not for me to say. We all have our own lines, and our own thoughts. It's a personal decision, and one none of us can make for another.

However, as a defensive firearm instructor, my students expect me to have opinions and answers to their questions about such matters, and that I certainly do. So, when asked, I reply with my personal truth, and all the caveats to go with:

I don't EVER go anywhere unarmed! Even on a plane, I have some defensive tool at hand. It may not be a gun, but I always have something(s). I go everywhere I am able to armed with at least one pistol, usually two. I do this because I realize and admit that the world is a dangerous place, there is no such thing as "safe", and no one, including myself, can predict where and when my next fight will take place - I live accordingly!

I understand and accept that it is not my job to rid the world of evil, and that any actions I take towards to violence of others is acted upon within my own personal moral boundries and always out of necessity.

I also understand that my #1 job while carrying a gun is to protect those I love and care about from the violence of others, and my #2 job is to get home in one piece to those who care about me. Because of that, I understand that I may need to use my gun to stop a felon from taking me away from my loved ones, or taking any of them away from me.

I also know that I must do everything in my power to deescalate any potential lethal force situation, and to disengage at the lowest force level possible. The gun is a trump card - it is the tool of last resort. The gun is not my focus, it's simply an option under the right circumstance.

With that, I also understand that the consequences of not deploying my pistol when it's needed, or not having one with me when it is needed, isn't an option. I will not sacrifice my health or my life, or the health or life of a loved one, on the altar of some misguided pacifism. I have already made up my mind that when presented with criminal violence, I will without hesitation, ACT, and I will have the tools to do so on my person. To not do so is, ultimately, irresponsible.

I do not wish to be involved in a shooting. I don't look for it and I don't want it. But should the circumstance arise, I will respond with swift and immediate action. I will not hesitate. I will fight tooth, fang and claw, and I will be victorious!

What others do is their own choice.

 

[E5RANGER375]

There's about 1-2% of the GENERAL human population which get joy from such activity, and we generally refer to them as "psychopaths". It's very normal and correct for you not to want to do this!

there are trained proffessionals (certain soldiers) whos sole purpose and goal is to kill the enemy, and find joy in it!!! and i dont see anything wrong with it, and they are NOT psychopaths. anyone who worked that hard to be among the best, and tells you they dont wanna go to war, is probly just trying to "not scare you away" lol.
so thats why i added my own words (in red) to your above quote.

overall i think your post was awesome and great advice for people to take it. great post!!

 

[HighStrung]

I began carrying when I was first legal to do so in this state. I carried daily for about a year and I began to question myself in terms of whether or not I was willing to actually take someone's life if they posed a threat to my own. I stopped carrying and actually let my license expire. It was a couple years later that I again returned to these questions, would I? My outlook was much different at this point than it was when I was just a few years younger, and single. At this point I was married and life itself had a much deeper meaning that it did before. I distinctly came back to a certain part of our wedding vows, "To love and protect" was a part of them. I pledged to my wife that I would protect her, at all costs, to our Lord. Should something happen, and I stand before the Lord awaiting judgement, knowing that I did not do everything possible to protect those that I love is more than I can consider as acceptable. It is not only my desire, but my responsibilty to protect those that I love, and myself in order to protect them for as long as I am allowed to live. I now have children and these beliefs are even deeper rooted in who I consider myself to be. Do I want to have to take another's life to save my own, absolutely not. Do I pray that I will never have to use my weapon defensively to protect myself or my loved ones, almost everyday when I put it on my side. Do I believe that I would hesitate, I do not. I was taught from the time I was a child to never pull a gun on someone you didn't intend to kill, and I still hold true to that. My gun is my last resort. If I see no other way out of a situation, then that weapon is my choice for survival. I've tried to think about what the consequences will be should I ever have to, but I don't think that is something we can actually understand until after we've gone thru it. I will deal with those emotions if (God forbid) that time comes. I have made myself educated in the laws pertaining to my local, and so long as I act within those laws, I have justified the use of whatever force necessary to ensure my (and my loved ones) survival.

 

[Glock21]

there are trained proffessionals (certain soldiers) whos sole purpose and goal is to kill the enemy, and find joy in it!!! and i dont see anything wrong with it, and they are NOT psychopaths. anyone who worked that hard to be among the best, and tells you they dont wanna go to war, is probly just trying to "not scare you away" lol.
so thats why i added my own words (in red) to your above quote.

overall i think your post was awesome and great advice for people to take it. great post!!

One might want to read Dave Grossman's works if you haven't. :-)

 

[GIJEW]

You and the OP are making the same point, except the OP is providing a MEANS to the necessary mindset. It's easier said than done (check out "on killing" by col. grossman) because we're hardwired not to destroy other members of our species--in addition to being conditioned as kids "not to hit" etc. That's the reason armies quit using bulleye targets for training, and switched to silouettes, and have DIs screaming at recuits to "... stop being vegetarians, it's not enough to shoot the targets, you have to ATTACK the targets with murder in eyes!!!!"

I can NOT believe some of the posts I see in this forum. I carry concealed, I carry open, But I am not sure if I could actually kill someone. Isn't that sort of an oxymoron? If you carry a weapon for personal protection or have one for home defense you had very well be ready to kill a BG. If you have to think about it, it most likely will be too late. If you don' know without a doubt get rid of that personal or home defense item. When faced with a life and death crisis when milliseconds count indecision will simply get you killed. Carrying is a gigantic responsibility and should never be taken lightly.

 

[Johnny C]

Great stuff guys, and lots for me to think about as I work to condition my mindset.

Thanks all

Johnny C

 

[jeremy]

See here is the problem I have I take no joy in having to shoot anything. I may take pride in the difficulty of the stalk, or of the complexity of the shot. I just do not honestly care one way or the other. Nope not even one little bit. I do not get angry in a fight. So what does that make me...

 

[HICKMAN]

I don't think "killing" would be on my mind as I drew.

Front sight and stop the threat would probably be the only thing on my mind.

I think many people run in to problems after they have to shoot.

 

[Joe Williams]

I don't think "killing" would be on my mind as I drew.

Front sight and stop the threat would probably be the only thing on my mind.

I think many people run in to problems after they have to shoot.

I'm here to tell you, what will be on your mind is "OH **** OH **** OH ****!!! If you've trained hard and properly, your body will take care of the rest. If you haven't.... good luck.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

I would agree that we are brought up not to kill other human beings. We should be grateful for that, as if we killed indiscriminately, there may be no computers, Internet, or other such means of exchanging information, much less seeing someone else.

I believe that the decision to be made is NOT TO BE A VICTIM. Sure, when one shoots in self defense, one does not intend to kill someone, however we all know that bullets do unsavory things to human bodies. That is why firearms are deadly weapons. I have been in a gunfight, and from my perspective, my intense interest was to keep my hide from being perforated, not that I may have to take a felonious shooter's life.

Remember, most of us God forbid when the red flag flies, will be RESPONDING to a deadly force threat. That in itself means that someone else is or will be immediately employing deadly force against us.

Not to sound harsh, but if one cannot resolve that they can or cannot use deadly force when their own life is in danger, please do not carry a firearm. A moment of indecision could be the difference between someone important living or dying (read yourself or someone you love).

I understand that there are those that society can live without. A felonious deadly assault upon a law abiding citizen deserves the maximum amount of force that can be mustered to quell that assault.

 

[Atkinsons]

If it comes down to me, family or the bad guy I would not hestitate to take him down with no hesitation....

 

[jeremy]

I'm here to tell you, what will be on your mind is "OH **** OH **** OH ****!!! If you've trained hard and properly, your body will take care of the rest. If you haven't.... good luck.

Huh...

That almost sounds like this morning...