First Machine Gun suggestions

[Turn Key]

Looks like mostly Semi-Auto guns on Jim Fuller's website. Any "building" of new MG's would be post dealer samples which I don't think will help him out much on his first purchase.

They can do quite a bit:

TK

 

[mjrducky]

I have decided to search for an M16. I'm browsing the web pages and searching some stores localy. I appreciate the help greg provided at Beech Grove. My first time in the store and he was very helpful in what to look for. If anyone sees a M16 lower or knows someone selling in my price range of 10-13K PM me. Till then its search, search, search. Then wait, wait, wait but thats the easy part.

 

[shooter521]

If anyone sees a M16 lower or knows someone selling in my price range of 10-13K PM me. Till then its search, search, search. Then wait, wait, wait but thats the easy part.

Find one on subguns or sturm and have it transferred to BGF or the C3 dealer of your choice. Alternatively, post a WTB ad on either/both forums and watch the offers come pouring in. Here's just a few of the listings I found:

For sale is a Colt AR-15 A2 conversion by Weapons Specialties in excellent condition on form 4 in Arizona for $10K shipped and insured w/buyer paying all taxes.

Colt M-16, Hard Times Armory conversion. One owner weapon. It has a 16 inch barrel with a collapsible stock. It dates from the mid 1980’s and is in mint condition. Form 4 in Georgia. $9,500.00.

COLT SP1 FLEMING CONVERSION. GREAT CONDITION. BUYER PAYS $200 STAMP FEE, SELLER PAYS SHIPPING. ALL NFA RULES APPLY. CASHIERS CHECK, MONEY ORDER, CC ACCEPTED. PICTURES AVAILABLE UPON REQUEST. SERIOUS INQUIRIES ONLY. $11,000.

Colt SP1, Commando Style gun with DIAS. The Sear is part of the gun and may not be used with another rifle $9,995.00

Colt Original Colt AR15, Model 614, same as ordered by General Curtis LeMay for the USAF and purchased by the USN for the Seals in the 1960s.
They are original Colt Factory machine guns made before being adopted by the military and are not conversions; they have the small pivot pin and do not have forward assist.
Police Department Trade in and while mechanically they are great they do have light storage scratches. $11,995.00 80% to 90% Condition.

 

[OneBadV8]

If only an MP40 could be had for $10K...

Subguns is a good site to find almost any MG. I've always eyed the FNCs, they seem to be quite a bit cheaper than the M16s, they take the same ammo, and not everyone has one.

Either way, good luck finding your MG and have fun with it!

 

[IndyGunworks]

imagine a subgun at friday night steel!!!

 

[samot]

heres one on sturm, appears to be a 2 stamp sale, & seller is advertising his price delivered, so from my experiences he pays his side of tax. I am not assosiated with seller....but its well within your price range, heck you could get one for each hand
WTS; MAC-11 .380 W/COASTAL CAN F3 $2950.00

OOPs, just read the rest of the thread & seen you were interested in the m16, sorry

 

[curraheeguns]

He has decided on an M16

 

[OneBadV8]

This might get you started.

NFA Firearms Ads

NFA Firearms Ads


NFA Firearms Ads

 

[alfahornet]

Check my pm

 

[alfahornet]

Find one on subguns or sturm and have it transferred to BGF or the C3 dealer of your choice. Alternatively, post a WTB ad on either/both forums and watch the offers come pouring in. Here's just a few of the listings I found:

For sale is a Colt AR-15 A2 conversion by Weapons Specialties in excellent condition on form 4 in Arizona for $10K shipped and insured w/buyer paying all taxes.

Colt M-16, Hard Times Armory conversion. One owner weapon. It has a 16 inch barrel with a collapsible stock. It dates from the mid 1980’s and is in mint condition. Form 4 in Georgia. $9,500.00.

Good Price if cash in hand and weapon is in excellent condition try to get it down to 9k but price is acceptable.

COLT SP1 FLEMING CONVERSION. GREAT CONDITION. BUYER PAYS $200 STAMP FEE, SELLER PAYS SHIPPING. ALL NFA RULES APPLY. CASHIERS CHECK, MONEY ORDER, CC ACCEPTED. PICTURES AVAILABLE UPON REQUEST. SERIOUS INQUIRIES ONLY. $11,000.

Colt SP1, Commando Style gun with DIAS. The Sear is part of the gun and may not be used with another rifle $9,995.00

After much research I am no fan of DIAS I know they're now asking a premium but I personally feel you;re better off with a RR. Also, the DIAS in this gun is of limited value as it is married to the receiver. Personally I'd pass it.

Colt Original Colt AR15, Model 614, same as ordered by General Curtis LeMay for the USAF and purchased by the USN for the Seals in the 1960s.
They are original Colt Factory machine guns made before being adopted by the military and are not conversions; they have the small pivot pin and do not have forward assist.
Police Department Trade in and while mechanically they are great they do have light storage scratches. $11,995.00 80% to 90% Condition.

I like the AR model 614, it's a factory gun, which in my book is a big plus. If you can live with cosmetical blemishes if it will be a shooter this may not be so bad. If cash in hand I'd offer 11K and settle for 11.5K. Personally 12K is a little steep for a 80% gun but it still isn't a bad price for a factory gun. Just I would be a little more aggressive and I am by no means a fighter to the last penny. If you find what you want act but don;t settle on something inferior. My personal opinion.

Also, if you're using it as a shooter most conversion will do just fine. For investment purposes I prefer factory RR. Just my . Be patient and keep the cash ready.

 

[sp3worker]

Colt SP1, Commando Style gun with DIAS. The Sear is part of the gun and may not be used with another rifle $9,995.00

Definitly avoid this one! It uses a DIAS as the conversion instead of drilling the receiver for a real auto sear. The DIAS is not replaceable, nor is the receiver.

Here's some good info, quoted from one of the M16 gurus at AR15.com-

jbntex-on DIAS Converted AR15's
Prior to 1981 a DIAS by itself was not considered a machinegun in and unto itself. As a result a common method to create a M16 via a Form 1 was to purchase an AR15, a DIAS, Full Auto Carrier, and Fire-Control Group.

The maker on the F1 would use the unserialized DIAS and on the F1 put the serial number of the receiver. At that point the DIAS became married to the receiver as the entire group of parts was now a machinegun "kit" with the receiver being the serialized component.

There has been some speculation based upon one person receiving a ATF Law Letter stating that these machineguns were improperly registered. However, I have yet to hear of the ATF rounding up Married DIAS Sear Guns.

From a practical limitations on the combination.

1. You won't be able to legally separate the DIAS from the Host Gun
2. The host gun is most likely a Colt SP1 with all of it's unique quirks.
3. If the receiver breaks you can't replace it like you can with a traditional DIAS gun.
4. If the unserialized DIAS breaks you can't "legally" replace it either.

Due to all of the caveat and that you are going to be stuck with all the downsides of a DIAS (timing, losing it, etc.) as well as some pretty old SP1 receiver in most cases, and potentially a slight chance of legal problems due to registration why mess with purchasing one of these unless at a huge discount over all the other M16 options out there.

jbntex-on RR selection
This would be my personal list in desirability for registered receivers in decending order.

What I would consider purchasing

1. Colt M16A2
2. Colt M16A1 or standard M16
3. Colt AR15 Mod 613 or 614
4. Forged Olympic Arms, Frankford Arsenal, or SENDRA converted by a reputable C2 such as P.A.W.S or Bushmaster.
5. Forged Olympic Arms, Frankford Arsenal, or SENDRA which has been properly converted by by an unknown C2 or individual and is in spec.

M16s I would not purchase unless it was a really good deal which would have to be $7500 or less.

6. Coverted Colt SP1 (These are good receivers and most people will disagree with me about placing these receivers below 3rd party such as Oly. Personally due to the upper pin hole arrangement and slab side look I would personally rather have a nice Oly or SENDRA unless an SP1 was priced really competitvely)
7. Essential Arms (Cast Receiver)

M16 I would not bother to unless under $5000 due to the inherent risk of problems down the road.

8. Olympic Arms (Bar Stock Milled Receiver)
8. Converted Oly, Franford, or SENDRA which is out of spec.
9. Reweld by a reputable C2 such as Norrell or Stemple

M16 I probably would not touch at any price (well any price anybody would sell an M16 for anyway)

10. Reweld by unknown C2
11. Married DIAS Gun

 

[samot]

I understand you have a 10k price range, but i dont understand why noone has recomended an HK , flemming sear, or a DLO trigger pack. IMO you will pay a little more but the versatility of the 9x series guns with a removable pack or sear are second to none. I have seen HK clone sear guns in the 12k to 14k range, the advantage IMO is that later on down the road you can purchase any HK clone ( Vector, Coharie, SW, Bobcat) in the neighborhood of $1500 and use it as a whole other host MG, switching your registered pack back & forth between the 2 host firearms, something you cannot do with a RR gun. The other advantage i see is you can register an HK or flemming sear, or a registered trigger pack in all different calibers 9mm, .223, .308, so swapping your sear or pack between multiple guns & multiple calibers. Hk 51 (308), HK 53(.223) Mp5 (9mm) Its a no brainer for me, but im kinda biased
To see someone make a decision on a 10k firearm in a 3 page thead without mentioning the HK series guns is a travesty
SIR, Really, im just trying to help, i wish you luck in what ever decision you decide to make on your first MG purchace

 

[VUPDblue]

Your best bet for finding one in your price range would be to post a "WTB" ad on Sturmgewher. Post what you are looking for and what you are wanting to pay. You'll get bites, trust me. I just bought one for a friend of mine doing just that and picked up a Palmetto conversion for $8k...

 

[mjrducky]

I took your advice and did just that. I posted a WTB on the website so well see what offers I get.

Your best bet for finding one in your price range would be to post a "WTB" ad on Sturmgewher. Post what you are looking for and what you are wanting to pay. You'll get bites, trust me. I just bought one for a friend of mine doing just that and picked up a Palmetto conversion for $8k...

 

[mjrducky]

Wow, Thanks for the indepth input you posted. I don't plan to but one with the DIAS because of the limitations it provides and I'm shooting for the A1 or A2 depending on the prices.

Why do you like the A2 over the A1?

Definitly avoid this one! It uses a DIAS as the conversion instead of drilling the receiver for a real auto sear. The DIAS is not replaceable, nor is the receiver.

Here's some good info, quoted from one of the M16 gurus at AR15.com-

jbntex-on DIAS Converted AR15's
Prior to 1981 a DIAS by itself was not considered a machinegun in and unto itself. As a result a common method to create a M16 via a Form 1 was to purchase an AR15, a DIAS, Full Auto Carrier, and Fire-Control Group.

The maker on the F1 would use the unserialized DIAS and on the F1 put the serial number of the receiver. At that point the DIAS became married to the receiver as the entire group of parts was now a machinegun "kit" with the receiver being the serialized component.

There has been some speculation based upon one person receiving a ATF Law Letter stating that these machineguns were improperly registered. However, I have yet to hear of the ATF rounding up Married DIAS Sear Guns.

From a practical limitations on the combination.

1. You won't be able to legally separate the DIAS from the Host Gun
2. The host gun is most likely a Colt SP1 with all of it's unique quirks.
3. If the receiver breaks you can't replace it like you can with a traditional DIAS gun.
4. If the unserialized DIAS breaks you can't "legally" replace it either.

Due to all of the caveat and that you are going to be stuck with all the downsides of a DIAS (timing, losing it, etc.) as well as some pretty old SP1 receiver in most cases, and potentially a slight chance of legal problems due to registration why mess with purchasing one of these unless at a huge discount over all the other M16 options out there.

jbntex-on RR selection
This would be my personal list in desirability for registered receivers in decending order.

What I would consider purchasing

1. Colt M16A2
2. Colt M16A1 or standard M16
3. Colt AR15 Mod 613 or 614
4. Forged Olympic Arms, Frankford Arsenal, or SENDRA converted by a reputable C2 such as P.A.W.S or Bushmaster.
5. Forged Olympic Arms, Frankford Arsenal, or SENDRA which has been properly converted by by an unknown C2 or individual and is in spec.

M16s I would not purchase unless it was a really good deal which would have to be $7500 or less.

6. Coverted Colt SP1 (These are good receivers and most people will disagree with me about placing these receivers below 3rd party such as Oly. Personally due to the upper pin hole arrangement and slab side look I would personally rather have a nice Oly or SENDRA unless an SP1 was priced really competitvely)
7. Essential Arms (Cast Receiver)

M16 I would not bother to unless under $5000 due to the inherent risk of problems down the road.

8. Olympic Arms (Bar Stock Milled Receiver)
8. Converted Oly, Franford, or SENDRA which is out of spec.
9. Reweld by a reputable C2 such as Norrell or Stemple

M16 I probably would not touch at any price (well any price anybody would sell an M16 for anyway)

10. Reweld by unknown C2
11. Married DIAS Gun

 

[PatMcGroyne]

Stick with the KNOWN unknowns.

Go with the M-s and AR- stoners. SOOOooo many options! Pat

 

[mjrducky]

What does it mean when they say it is a conversion?

It was converted to an M16 or does it mean it was converted to shoot something other then 5.56? like 9mm or 12LR

So if I'm buying a conversion - what would that mean to me?

Thanks

 

[KingWeb50]

What does it mean when they say it is a conversion?

It was converted to an M16 or does it mean it was converted to shoot something other then 5.56? like 9mm or 12LR

So if I'm buying a conversion - what would that mean to me?

Thanks

converted from a ar15 semi auto to a full auto

 

[VUPDblue]

converted from a ar15 semi auto to a full auto

Precisely. The converted guns were originally built to semi auto specs. They were converted to full auto specs. Specifically, they had a hole drilled for the autosear pin and probably had some millwork done on the inside of the lower, behind the trigger group, to allow for the motion of the autosear itself.

 

[sp3worker]

Wow, Thanks for the indepth input you posted. I don't plan to but one with the DIAS because of the limitations it provides and I'm shooting for the A1 or A2 depending on the prices.

Why do you like the A2 over the A1?

The DIAS is a good option, just not in that case. I'd feel totally comfortable buying a DIAS on it's own. I like the DIAS's because you can replace your receiver. Another option is a Lightning Link, that's the way I went. They are about 1/2 the price of a DIAS or RR M16. The LL is almost as versitile as a DIAS, the only thing it can't do is run a .22 kit reliably. The DIAS's require a little more messing around to time than a LL.

If you are looking to spend 10K-13K then you'll be priced out of a factory M16A2. You're looking at 18K-25K for a factory A2. Really, you aren't getting much more than some receiver reinforcements and collectability for your money. There are far fewer A2's in the registry than A1's or 613/614 series guns, that's why the huge price difference.