Female friend, recoil shy

[tatters]

I have a dilemma. A female friend of mine would like to purchase a handgun for self defense. No plans to carry necessarily, but for sure one in the house.
The scenario. The person who introduced her to handguns and took her to the range loaded her .38 Smith with +p+ ammo to practice with and instructed her to load with standard ammo to keep in the house. With the +p+ loads, the gun was way too loud and recoiled so much she doesn't want a .38 anymore. I would have thought it would have been better to train with ammo you were going to use consistantly. At least ease her into shooting and not scare her first time out. Anyway, that was the past.

She would like to get another handgun, and she has asked me to guide her. Small, full power handguns are too snappy for her, and since she isn't really a "gun person" I would think a revolver would be a good choice. Would a .22 Mag be a decent choice given her history? Maybe a tip-up Beretta .380 or .32? I would suggest a semi-auto, but I'm not sure about her hand strength. Whaddaya think?

 

[dudley0]

Go back to the .38 and get some quality 148 grain wadcutters for it. Not snappy and still do a decent job.

I see no reason to have a +p+round in a snubby. Extra flash, louder and more recoil with no added benefits.

 

[Leo]

Go back to the .38 and get some quality 148 grain wadcutters for it. Not snappy and still do a decent job.

I see no reason to have a +p+round in a snubby. Extra flash, louder and more recoil with no added benefits.

I had a girlfriend who was introduced to firearms with a drunk boyfriend handing her a 44 magnum with no ear protection or eye protection who laughed and made fun of her when the recoil drove the gun into her forehead enough to make her bleed. What a foolish jerk, no wonder she wanted nothing to do with firearms. Spent 5 or six times with her using a pellet pistol and a .22 pistol. Moved to a .38 using soft target loads. When she was comfortable and had the foundations of marksmanship down, I was able to mover her to full power loads. Even got her to try a few shots with the .44 mag without any drama. She never became a shooting hobbyist, but was no longer afraid and would gladly shoot for fun with me at other times.

 

[pudly]

Only f'in idiots introduce people to guns by starting them with a load that is likely to scare them. Her trainer was very likely looking to laugh at her reaction and did a mind job on her in the process. People like that do no service to either the newbie or gun ownership in general.

First mistake- starting with a small handgun because it is "for a woman". Smaller/lighter handguns are harder to be accurate with and have snappier recoil. In other words, they are better for an experienced shooter. Smaller/lighter guns only make sense for a carry gun. There is no reason to go small with a home defense gun. If possible, I'd get her to the range with a .22 first to give her some practice with something that isn't as scary. Then have her step up to a .380, .38, 9mm, or .45 with a larger/heavier frame and longer barrel. .40s are known for being snappier, so it is probably not a good option here.

I'd strongly recommend that you read the stickies in the Women and Firearms subforum about buying a gun for a woman. Also, you might want to direct her to read the Cornered Cat web site which is oriented towards female gun owners.

Some semiautos have particularly strong springs which can make racking difficult (Kahrs some to mind here). However, most problems with racking are a matter of technique, not strength.

[video=youtube_share;kbayNc6D9HY]http://youtu.be/kbayNc6D9HY[/video]

 

[Snapdragon]

I would go with a good sturdy mid-size .38 revolver and get her started on very light loads. Hornady makes a light load .38 spl hollowpoint (soft tip) that comes in a pink box.

My easiest-shooting and most accurate revolver is an old Smith Model 64 police trade-in. It's built like a tank and the recoil is minimal. A Smith model 10 or a Ruger GP100 would also be good choices.

My model 64

 

[indiucky]

I would go with a good sturdy mid-size .38 revolver and get her started on very light loads. Hornady makes a light load .38 spl hollowpoint (soft tip) that comes in a pink box.

My easiest-shooting and most accurate revolver is an old Smith Model 64 police trade-in. It's built like a tank and the recoil is minimal. A Smith model 10 or a Ruger GP100 would also be good choices.

Snap is right...(What a shock..) I notice my wife was not "recoil shy" as much as she was "too much crap happening on the gun when I shoot it" shy....She tried semi autos and just hated the slide movement, empties flying out of the weapon, hammer coming back, etc...

She got her first Smith, a lightweight J frame and has never looked back at any other carry gun...It's not her "go to the range and put 50 plus P's down the pipe" gun but it is her "I gotta run to the store do you need anything?" gun....Like Snap she has an K/L frame Smith for when she is wanting to do some range time...Yet will always put about 10 rounds down range with the light J frame when we are done shooting to make sure she is still putting them where she would need to if called up to...

 

[oldpink]

As others have mentioned, there is no reason in the world to hamper her with a smaller, less capable caliber the likes of .22 Magnum, .380 ACP, or .32 ACP.
The best option to get her re-acclimated would be to have her practice extensively with a .22 revolver, then move her up to what sounds like your ideal home defense gun for her: a medium frame .38 Special or .357 Magnum with at least a 4" barrel
Two ideal guns for the defensive gun would be the Ruger GP100 or the S&W 586 or 686 (bring a big wad of cash for the last two choices, though!), but there are a few others in that somewhat beefier size category that can make shooting much more comfortable.
Have her handle the gun to see how it feels before you buy, too.
You have a wide selection of .22 revolvers out there to choose from, so use whatever you can, or skip it altogether and use mild loads at first in the defensive gun instead.
Once she's comfortable with the .22 revolver, take her to the range with the medium frame .38 (or .357, since you can shoot .38 Special out of all .357 Magnum guns) revolver and several boxes of the milder (non +P or +P+) loads available, possibly either lead wadcutters or lead semi-wadcutters.
It wouldn't hurt to get your ammo from a gunshop with a wide selection of .38 Special ammo because you may be able to ask them which are the mildest loads.
Have her shoot with these loads until she's as comfortable with them as she was with the .22 revolver, then move her on up to proper defense loads, which (by the way) don't necessarily have to be barnburners and even in the same category of power as the mild loads she is now comfortable with, but with the exception that they are loaded with top quality jacketed hollowpoints (think the likes of Gold Dot or Federal HST, but there are others) for her to practice with again to get her comfortable with a defense load and assure that they hit the same point of aim as the mild practice loads.
By the time she has arrived at the ideal (for her) defense loads, she will have expended hundreds of .22LR and .38 Special loads, but she will be good to go.
Also, don't be shy about showing her proper gun handling (stance, recoil management, etc.) and especially gun safety, particularly trigger discipline; and definitely go over scenarios to get her in the mindset of how to react should push come to shove.
Good luck.

 

[Brown]

Add another vote for the GP100. My wife was the same when she started with handguns. Recoil shy. Load up a 4" GP100 with full underlug using 38's and the recoil is SO MINIMAL! just about guarantee she will be a fan.

 

[Woobie]

I'll agree with everything said here so far, there's some great advice. Just to broaden the discussion, I'll float a couple of more things out there.

I don't much agree with James Yeager, but he's got a great point on this topic: everyone says that women need a revolver because pistols are more complicated, as if if women are incapable of learning the platform. A woman can put on makeup, drive, drink coffee and talk on the phone all at the same time. Complicated tasks are a breeze to most women. They, like men, just have to learn the process and become comfortable with it to be proficient. The recoil powered operation of the pistol has the added benefit of smoothing out the recoil impulse, making them more comfortable to shoot for some people.

Its been said in this thread already, but I will reiterate: women don't necessarily need little pink guns. I used to have this misperception. Then I let my wife shoot my LCP .380, and she hated it. Not being able to but her pinky on the grip, and have a short, snappy pistol left her feeling "like it was going to fly out of her hand." Her words. Later on down the road, I let her shoot my CZ 75D compact and my dad's PPQ 4", both in 9mm. She like them both much better, and is downright deadly with them. She liked the Walther better, so I sold the CZ, bought consecutive serial numbered PPQ's and we now have magazine compatibility. 9mm can be loaded way down, or up to near .357 mag performance as well.

My point is, there are a lot of ways to approach this, and once she has become comfortable with shooting in general, don't rule out anything based on preconceived notions. Good luck, I hope everything works out in this. I can't get my wife to carry, but honestly, I wish more women did. The ugly facts are they are more likely to be victimized.

 

[dudley0]

I don't follow the thought process that women can't control or manipulate larger guns or semi-autos.

What I do follow is the fact that if a person (any gender) doesn't want to put the time into practicing failure drills and manipulations then a revolver is a lot easier for them. A well made revolver with an adequate load in it has less chance of failure.

My wife carried for a short while then stopped. She doesn't practice any more and when I hand her a pistol and say make this safe she has to stop and think it through. Hand her a revolver and she is good to go. She is warming back up to actually practicing again so she will feel comfortable enough to carry.

 

[Bigtanker]

1911 in 9mm. Really soft shooting and the slide isn't bad to work. It is on the heavy side but that helps with the recoil. I shot GluemanZ28's Springfield. Super nice shooter.

 

[Bfish]

I would get her on some full size handguns in calibers like 9mm or 38 meaning revolvers and semis. Then let her see which guns she shoots best/likes best. Then she can make a choice she will enjoy and be comfortable with, she can learn to operate, clean and be proficient with any firearm. So I would guide her into helping her make her own informed decision. It can see benefits far beyond firearms.

She may still need some work to deal with flenching though. I have my girlfriend doing a lot of dry firing right now... Her dad decided to have her shoot his compact 45 and she's a bit timid now also. 22 and on to some dry fire and drills with live and she's almost back to normal.

 

[Brandon]

I have gone shooting with a bunch of women from work, neighbor, my mother... General consincous is they like the G17 the most. (I don't have a 1911 9mm) They like the size and are comfortable with it after a couple magazines.

Not many of them cared to shoot my .38 a second time nor my G27.

 

[eric001]

I know alot of you guys don't like Taurus, but I'm going to suggest this anyway because of personal experience with one.

Had a gal of rather small/slight frame who wanted to shoot, but was afraid of big/heavy/powerful guns. I finally got her to try shooting my .357 Tracker using .38's, and then even .357 rounds.
Because the Tracker is ported, she was more than pleasantly surprised about the slight perceived recoil. She was even quite comfortable shooting the (factory) .357's through it with no wincing or cringing...even enjoyed shooting them.

She also shot .38's through my .357 snubby, and enjoyed that as well. The gun was a little heavier than she expected, but that extra weight significantly damped recoil--and that's what she liked.

While I'm at it, I have heard Walther's PK380 is supposed to be pretty light recoil, but have no personal experience with that one to back it up.

Maybe some of that might help??

 

[looney2ns]

Have her get used to the mechanics and how to manipulate the gun of choice at home, while dry firing for several sessions at home. Before adding in the additional intimidation factor of shooting at the range. Great things can be accomplished without ever firing a shot.

Anyone that would hand a newbie a 44mag to shoot as their first gun is a huge jack-off douche.

 

[wtburnette]

Take her, or have her go to a range and rent a selection of guns to see what she likes. The two guns I've been the most impressed with lately have been the Sig Sauer P238 and P938. Both are small and are great for small female hands and have pretty low recoil. The P238, a .380, felt almost like a .22 to me the recoil was so light. The P938, while not quite as light with the recoil, was better than my G19 I felt and definitely better than my M&P Shield 9mm. Both also had slides that were very easy to rack. In any case, letting her shoot a variety is the best bet. A range like Point Blank in Carmel would be best, as they have a large selection of guns to rent and their Midwest reman ammo is quite reasonable.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

Just get her off this stupid idea of micro sized guns. It never ceases to amaze me the ignorant people who recommend women gets tiny sized guns. Any full size gun in 9mm or any full size revolver with a standard 38 Special load should be fine. If you are in NWI them PM me and she's welcome to try any of my stuff to find what she may like.

 

[wtburnette]

Just get her off this stupid idea of micro sized guns. It never ceases to amaze me the ignorant people who recommend women gets tiny sized guns. Any full size gun in 9mm or any full size revolver with a standard 38 Special load should be fine. If you are in NWI them PM me and she's welcome to try any of my stuff to find what she may like.

Depending on the woman, full sized might not work. My girlfriend and her daughter both have very small hands and find the grips on my G19 too big to be comfortable. My girlfriend's daughter loves the Sig P238 because the tiny grip fits her hands perfectly. I unfortunately just found out my girlfriend likes the grip on my CZ Rami

 

[Twangbanger]

If 6-7 shot guns are acceptable, then since you seem to indicate she may be open-minded about carry, why not have her try renting a Glock 42? That's a mild gun, and once she's had time to get comfortable with it, she may find that gun could easily fit into her daily accoutrements, and you never know...she might decide to start trying holsters and get her permit, someday (whereas something like a larger-framed revolver might block that path).

And I agree with the comment about having her do some dry-fire work with an auto before heading to the range.

 

[Droogie]

I don't think this question applies just to women. I believe that anyone shooting for the first time should start with .22, and only move up after they have mastered the basics (grip, stance, aiming, follow-through, etc.) There is so much to learn. Worrying about recoil only hampers the learning process.

I also "double-plug" (foam plugs + cans) new people on the range. Anything I can do to make it less stressful improves the learning process.