Edward Snowden - The NSA leaker, Fascinating

[87iroc]

Note that the article said that he didn't vote for Obama in 08, voted 3rd party...but waited until AFTER the election to see if O changed the monitoring of civilians.

Tells me Bush was doing it before and Obama just kept doing what W did.

While I liked W...I know the Patriot Act was in contradiction to the 1st 10 Amendments...

The kid is a hero, I agree...willing to die to expose this.

 

[Lex Concord]

It would be different if the government used the process to track what we would call terrorists. The problem is their definition of terrorist does not agree with ours. Evangelical Christians are #1 on the DHS terrorist watch list. They saved data on millions of U.S. citizens that have no ties to terrorism. [STRIKE] The Obama[/STRIKE] no administration can[STRIKE]not[/STRIKE] be trusted with the power they have. They have punished their enemies and it would have continued if the scandals would not have come out in the open.

I'm all for nuking terrorists until they glow and then shooting them in the dark, but this administration is tracking us.

FIFY

 

[Trooper]

The real question is whether there is enough manpower to even analyze most of what they have gathered. Obama is gutting the Intelligence agencies. Over a million intelligence analysts have been let go. DIA has lost 80% of their manpower. CIA has lost about 30% and NSA about 40%.

Remember that Bill Clinton cut the civil service in half, from 3 million to 1.5 million. Most civil servants only manage. Most of the work is done by contractors. Until Obama started cutting, there were 8.5 million contractors. The excuse is the Sequestor. However Sequestor only requires less than 10% cuts, not 40 to 80%!

HUMINT Operations on the Brink of Extinction Due to Sequester | SOFREP

So, and this is outside the argument of whether the government should have been doing this at all, they do not have the manpower to do what they claim they are doing. Which makes me wonder if this is some form of trick.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The real question is whether there is enough manpower to even analyze most of what they have gathered. Obama is gutting the Intelligence agencies. Over a million intelligence analysts have been let go. DIA has lost 80% of their manpower. CIA has lost about 30% and NSA about 40%.

Remember that Bill Clinton cut the civil service in half, from 3 million to 1.5 million. Most civil servants only manage. Most of the work is done by contractors. Until Obama started cutting, there were 8.5 million contractors. The excuse is the Sequestor. However Sequestor only requires less than 10% cuts, not 40 to 80%!

HUMINT Operations on the Brink of Extinction Due to Sequester | SOFREP

So, and this is outside the argument of whether the government should have been doing this at all, they do not have the manpower to do what they claim they are doing. Which makes me wonder if this is some form of trick.

I'm trying to figure out if you think that is a bad thing (especially if theyre spying on Americans)?

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

I want to weigh in on this issue with a few thoughts if I may.

This is one of the reasons that all secrets must end. If we allow the government under ANY administration and/or party to hide behind the curtain of "national security" they can do anything to anyone at anytime without review.

Now, for the record, sometimes it MAY be necessary to do "anything" to someone, but we need a public review in a timely manner to make certain that abuse of power does not occur, or is at least limited.

This is why transparency is critically vital to our remaining a free nation. Note I did not say a "safe" nation, but a free nation. A free people who review, debate, and discuss in an open forum is one of the reasons that our forefather fought so hard for the freedoms that they earned.

Should the CIA, NSA or any other agency be allowed to get their hands dirty? Yes. From time to time. But this doesn't mean to continue rolling in the dirt like pigs in mud. This weakens our national interests by undermining the values we have fought so hard to preserve. And I don't just mean fighting on the battlefield. I mean in the Legislature, in the laws, in the public forum.

For too long have we allowed the government to frighten us like little children with the boogeyman of the age. In the 20's and 30's it was the Bolsheviks, in the 40's it was the Hun or the Jap, in the 50's and 60's it was the Communists or the Radicals, in the 70's and 80's it was the Drug Cartels, in the last many years it has been the Terrorists.

It is the excuse to fight these evil threats that the government has used to tell us we need them to protect us, that we need to curtail and roll back the protection of civil liberties so that they can "do their job."

The worst part is they are correct - to a point... But that point is far shorter than they would have us believe. There have been threats to our nation by Bolsheviks and Communists and Radicals and Drug Cartels and Terrorists, but none of those threats would have brought down our nation! Damage may have been done and lives lost, but our nation is far stronger with our liberties intact than without!

This brings me back to my original point - that we must know about everything our government does in a timely manner. As far as I am concerned ALL activities over 40 years old should be declassified and most activities over 10 years old probably should be declassified. This would allow a public debate on whether such activities should continue or be terminated. Yes, continue. I am certain that there are some things we would tolerate continuing even in an open forum. I only argue that an open forum should be had.

The national security zealots would claim this would weaken us, and this is true - in some aspects. In others I believe it would strengthen us.

The question we have to ask ourselves is if we want to live in the most secure nation or the most free nation.

As for me, I will take freedom every time over security. For security I will take the tools guaranteed me under the Second Amendment!

Regards,

Doug

 

[Jerchap2]

It would be different if the government used the process to track what we would call terrorists. The problem is their definition of terrorist does not agree with ours. Evangelical Christians are #1 on the DHS terrorist watch list. They saved data on millions of U.S. citizens that have no ties to terrorism. The Obama administration cannot be trusted with the power they have. They have punished their enemies and it would have continued if the scandals would not have come out in the open.

I'm all for nuking terrorists until they glow and then shooting them in the dark, but this administration is tracking us.

I could not have said it any better. Rep.

 

[Jerchap2]

God bless this young man. We need more like him.

 

[cobber]

The real question is whether there is enough manpower to even analyze most of what they have gathered. Obama is gutting the Intelligence agencies. Over a million intelligence analysts have been let go. DIA has lost 80% of their manpower. CIA has lost about 30% and NSA about 40%.

Remember that Bill Clinton cut the civil service in half, from 3 million to 1.5 million. Most civil servants only manage. Most of the work is done by contractors. Until Obama started cutting, there were 8.5 million contractors. The excuse is the Sequestor. However Sequestor only requires less than 10% cuts, not 40 to 80%!

HUMINT Operations on the Brink of Extinction Due to Sequester | SOFREP

So, and this is outside the argument of whether the government should have been doing this at all, they do not have the manpower to do what they claim they are doing. Which makes me wonder if this is some form of trick.

Analyze, schmanalyze. How much analysis did the IRS do in the recent Tea Party/Patriot debacle?

Target a few organizations/folks you don't like, collect and leak their secrets to some advocacy group. Mysteriously the information surfaces...

Expect more of this.

 

[Trooper]

Analyze, schmanalyze. How much analysis did the IRS do in the recent Tea Party/Patriot debacle?

Target a few organizations/folks you don't like, collect and leak their secrets to some advocacy group. Mysteriously the information surfaces...

Expect more of this.

That is the point. They already have the IRS, what do they need NSA for? The IRS is authorized to gather intelligence on US citizens.

Whether or not we should gather data on US citizens, the use of such information for political purposes is going way too far.

 

[Thegeek]

it's time to play a little game I like to call "Death or Book Deal".

 

[Hoosierkav]

The real question is whether there is enough manpower to even analyze most of what they have gathered. Obama is gutting the Intelligence agencies. Over a million intelligence analysts have been let go. DIA has lost 80% of their manpower. CIA has lost about 30% and NSA about 40%.

Remember that Bill Clinton cut the civil service in half, from 3 million to 1.5 million. Most civil servants only manage. Most of the work is done by contractors. Until Obama started cutting, there were 8.5 million contractors. The excuse is the Sequestor. However Sequestor only requires less than 10% cuts, not 40 to 80%!

HUMINT Operations on the Brink of Extinction Due to Sequester | SOFREP

So, and this is outside the argument of whether the government should have been doing this at all, they do not have the manpower to do what they claim they are doing. Which makes me wonder if this is some form of trick.

Perhaps the goal is to create so much distrust in our (federal) government that a new leader for a new direction for a new nation will be presented to the masses, and we will gobble him up like candy.

Ok, maybe not "we", but the sheep of our nation will.

 

[CTS]

The real question is whether there is enough manpower to even analyze most of what they have gathered. Obama is gutting the Intelligence agencies. Over a million intelligence analysts have been let go. DIA has lost 80% of their manpower. CIA has lost about 30% and NSA about 40%.

So out of a population of 313 million people, they let go over a million intelligence analysts? The government reduced its total workforce by around 40 percent?

http://www2.census.gov/govs/apes/11fedfun.pdf

Do you realize that when you make absolutely ridiculous assertions like "Over a million intelligence analysts have been let go" it makes anything else you say completely incredulous? I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but when you either make up or repeat things like that, a figure a 10 year old might question, you completely lose whatever point you were trying to make. There is no way on earth we have ever had a million intelligence analysts ever, let alone let go that many.

 

[ViperJock]

Note that the article said that he didn't vote for Obama in 08, voted 3rd party...but waited until AFTER the election to see if O changed the monitoring of civilians.

Tells me Bush was doing it before and Obama just kept doing what W did.

.

No it doesn't. It maybe true but you just violated a dozen steps involved in logical thought.

 

[ViperJock]

Perhaps the goal is to create so much distrust in our (federal) government that a new leader for a new direction for a new nation will be presented to the masses, and we will gobble him up like candy.

Ok, maybe not "we", but the sheep of our nation will.

So you would argue to keep Obama in office? Or what is your solution to this?

 

[Trooper]

Perhaps the goal is to create so much distrust in our (federal) government that a new leader for a new direction for a new nation will be presented to the masses, and we will gobble him up like candy.

Ok, maybe not "we", but the sheep of our nation will.

Actually that is the tactic that radical Islamists use. Break down your trust in your government then present Islam as the answer.

 

[Trooper]

So out of a population of 313 million people, they let go over a million intelligence analysts? The government reduced its total workforce by around 40 percent?

http://www2.census.gov/govs/apes/11fedfun.pdf

Do you realize that when you make absolutely ridiculous assertions like "Over a million intelligence analysts have been let go" it makes anything else you say completely incredulous? I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but when you either make up or repeat things like that, a figure a 10 year old might question, you completely lose whatever point you were trying to make. There is no way on earth we have ever had a million intelligence analysts ever, let alone let go that many.

No, that comes from within the IC. We have seen nearly 4 million contractors discharged. Obama is cutting far deeper than required by the Sequester. The military has been cut by a third, with deeper cuts still in the planning.

Did you read the article? That mostly dealt with HUMINT (human intelligence) which has been cut 80%. DIA is a shell.

At the peak, the IC had over 5 million working in their ranks.

Remember that while there are only 1.5 million civil servants (mostly supervisors and administrators), there have been about 8.5 million contractors. Thus the total government workforce was about 10 million people.

 

[Expat]

Steve Clemons leak: Intelligence officials overheard joking about how NSA leaker should be 'disappeared' after handing classified documents to press | Mail Online

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Knowing what all could happen, when I read stories like this, it does make me wonder if I could do what this guy did...I'd like to think I could.

 

[LEaSH]

I don't know if Steve Clemons can ID the four guys, but would really like it if he does.

 

[Trooper]

How bad the cuts in the IC have been

Clapper: Sequester cuts could leave US intel blind to next attack​

Clapper: Sequester cuts could leave US intel blind to next attack - The Hill's DEFCON Hill
Cuts Make Intelligence Failures Likely, Top Intel Official Says Defense.gov News Article: Cuts Make Intelligence Failures Likely, Top Intel Official Says

There is even more.