Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Matter

[rmabrey]

YAY now im a sinner!!

 

[rmabrey]

I have a feeling that some people in this thread have never associated with a gay person before.

 

[ghostinthewood]

I have a feeling that some people in this thread have never associated with a gay person before.

Whatever man, my best friend is gay.

 

[hornadylnl]

I am glad we have people who never have lusted in their heart. It is something I have always struggled with.

I believe every living being over the age of 13 has lusted in their hearts. I have. It's what you choose to do about that lust. Temptation in and of itself is not evil. Even the one we aren't allowed to talk about was tempted.

 

[moischmoe]

I shudder to think of the nose art a gay pilot might paint on his aircraft.

 

[hornadylnl]

What other "rights" that exist in the civilian world do we want to impose on the military?

How about all of them? If a soldier can't handle the responsibility of those rights while serving, boot them out. Are our soldiers members of a daycare or are they men and women risking their lives for our country?

I served in Infantry and was treated like a toddler. From the interactions I had with spec ops, they treated each other like adults and were professional to the hilt. I never witnessed issues with insubordination, etc. I don't understand why our soldiers can't be treated like adults.

 

[ghostinthewood]

I shudder to think of the nose art a gay pilot might paint on his aircraft.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

How about all of them? If a soldier can't handle the responsibility of those rights while serving, boot them out. Are our soldiers members of a daycare or are they men and women risking their lives for our country?

I served in Infantry and was treated like a toddler. From the interactions I had with spec ops, they treated each other like adults and were professional to the hilt. I never witnessed issues with insubordination, etc. I don't understand why our soldiers can't be treated like adults.

You're comparing the basic Infantry man to the best of the best the Army has to offer? Really?

 

[ghostinthewood]

You're comparing the basic Infantry man to the best of the best the Army has to offer? Really?

Way to avoid the subject..

 

[hornadylnl]

You're comparing the basic Infantry man to the best of the best the Army has to offer? Really?

And it was my contention that if you treat adults like children, you could expect them to act like children.

 

[Bill of Rights]

This seems to me like such a simple issue to resolve. If you don't agree with gay sex for whatever reason, don't be party to it, whether as pitcher, catcher, or spectator. If you don't like drugs, don't use them. If you don't condone miscegenation, don't pick a partner of a different skin color.

It's obvious that when people talk about "reasons we can't discuss on INGO", they're referring to Fenway's policy on religious discussion. When we get into religious reasons for any of the above (and like it or not, religion was used as a primary argument against miscegenation), while it's completely appropriate to apply the laws, rules, and mores of your belief to yourself or even to your minor children, it is completely inappropriate to do so to others. Your beliefs are your own, and more power to you with them. Whether someone else has something for which s/he must answer at the day of Judgment or not is between him/her and the Deity to whom s/he prays.

You have the right to tell someone that your religious beliefs are your reason for refusing to accept homosexual relations and actions. You do not have the right to force those beliefs on others to control them without at the same time relinquishing your right to have your own beliefs control your own actions.

(and no, you having that right does not mean that Fenway has to allow you to exercise it here on his board. )
Blessings,
Bill

 

[machete]

Let me see if I can explain my position on this subject. To start with, I believe homosexuality is an abomination and I believe sex outside of marriage is a sin. That is my religious belief. With that said, I don't really care what two people do in the privacy of their bedroom. That is up to them. However, we are not talking about rights people have in the civilian world. We are talking about the military.

So, we now have to allow gays to openly serve. What other "rights" that exist in the civilian world do we want to impose on the military? Once again, THE MILITARY IS NOT THE PLACE FOR SOCIAL EXPERIMENTS!!!!!

the military also aint the place to be concerning itself with unscientific ideas like abomination---and---sin.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

(and no, you having that right does not mean that Fenway has to allow you to exercise it here on his board. )

+1,000,000 It never ceases to amaze me how many people actually think the 1A applies to private property such as internet forums.

 

[rjstew317]

the military also aint the place to be concerning itself with unscientific ideas like abomination---and---sin.

maybe not, but at the same time, when you enter into a contractual agreement with armed services you state that you are agreeing to abide by the rules they have enacted. as i said in my earlier post, it shouldn't matter what color, creed, or sexual preference you have. remember, no one is forced to join (at the moment), they volunteered.

 

[Compatriot G]

the military also aint the place to be concerning itself with unscientific ideas like abomination---and---sin.

So unscientific ideas like honor, duty, country and pride should be abolished as well?

 

[dross]

And it was my contention that if you treat adults like children, you could expect them to act like children.

I agree with you. I think our military culture still has a lot of residue left over from the days of the draft. I think you can impose discipline with a lot more opportunities for self-discipline, rather than the classic scary NCO approach.

I think there's a place for a harsh environment in basic training/boot camp. The stress and learning instant obedience has its place. After that, in my experience, the best units, whether squads, platoons, or companies, were run by leaders who were tough, but tough in that they demanded a lot and perhaps meted out tough consequences, but avoided the silly games that some leaders liked to play that had more to do with amusing themsleves and feeding their own egos than it did with building a great unit.

Guys who have to be harrassed into compliance either wash out eventually or they survive as bad apples, infecting other soldiers. Wash em out early and often and encourage self motivation in the rest.

 

[machete]

maybe not, but at the same time, when you enter into a contractual agreement with armed services you state that you are agreeing to abide by the rules they have enacted.

but were talking about the government,,,the government dont get to enact rules based on unscientific ideas...

 

[hornadylnl]

I agree with you. I think our military culture still has a lot of residue left over from the days of the draft. I think you can impose discipline with a lot more opportunities for self-discipline, rather than the classic scary NCO approach.

I think there's a place for a harsh environment in basic training/boot camp. The stress and learning instant obedience has its place. After that, in my experience, the best units, whether squads, platoons, or companies, were run by leaders who were tough, but tough in that they demanded a lot and perhaps meted out tough consequences, but avoided the silly games that some leaders liked to play that had more to do with amusing themsleves and feeding their own egos than it did with building a great unit.

Guys who have to be harrassed into compliance either wash out eventually or they survive as bad apples, infecting other soldiers. Wash em out early and often and encourage self motivation in the rest.

This 1000 times over. The most respected leaders I had were the ones who gave out the most respect. When they said jump, we said how high. I worked in an S3 shop for a year around lt.'s, cptn's, majors, and lt col. We conversed every day in normal conversation and there was zero ambiguity as to who was in charge. We followed orders out of respect, not because we were forced to stand at attention or parade rest when conversing or that they held ucmj manuals over our heads.

Leaders build esprit de corps by sweating, bleeding and suffering together, not by acting as slave drivers making soldiers do stupid human tricks to stroke their own egos. The captain from Restrepo was a good leader. It looked like his soldiers would crawl trough hell for him because they knew he'd be right next to them.

We often talk a out our soldiers deserve respect. Why don't we start by treating them like citizens instead of slaves?

 

[jeremy]

I do not make Privates do Stupid Human Tricks to stroke my ego, I do it for my amusement...

 

[rmabrey]

Ohh I have a question. What about a draft?

Say the start drafting people, can you be as gay as you want when your forced to fight?

It totally makes sense that you can be gay then but not when you volunteer to give your life for your country