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    dburkhead

    Master
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    I haven't agreed with everything in this thread, but I will be the one who acknowledges that carry rights are not as simple as the completely unrestricted 2A right. The "all or nothing" line of reasoning generally doesn't bear fruit.

    Actually, pending Constitutional Amendment, they are, or should be, just that simple. That's not politically achievable at this time so I generally work toward small, incremental, improvements (or do as much as I can to slow/stop additional erosion) of the right.

    The only Constitutional allowance for restriction is via the 5th Amendment where, through "due process," one's life, liberty, or property can be taken away. And, no, "due process" does not mean that Congress can simply pass a law. It means the whole accusation, answering of accusation (via the courts), etc., conviction, sentence, appeals etc. The courts can impose a restriction as a criminal sentence or via a finding of "incompetence." That's it. Anything else is unconstitutional.
     

    Paul

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    i think anybody with a valid LTCH should be able to carry at state universities. but i think private universities should be able to not allow it since it is private property.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    i think anybody with a valid LTCH should be able to carry at state universities. but i think private universities should be able to not allow it since it is private property.

    Should those private universities also be able to limit or forbid your practice of your religion on their private property? What about your freedom of speech? Should they be subject to property restrictions? IMHO, the Constitution overrides all of these. They may say you have to leave the property, but there should be no law that says that by entering the property armed, (that is, by that action alone) you have committed a crime. (Texas' 30.06 law, for example)

    :twocents:

    Blessings,
    B
     

    dburkhead

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    Should those private universities also be able to limit or forbid your practice of your religion on their private property? What about your freedom of speech? Should they be subject to property restrictions? IMHO, the Constitution overrides all of these. They may say you have to leave the property, but there should be no law that says that by entering the property armed, (that is, by that action alone) you have committed a crime. (Texas' 30.06 law, for example)

    :twocents:

    Blessings,
    B

    I would agree with carrying not being a crime (unless you refuse to leave when asked when it becomes trespass). However carrying weapons, and all the other items you list above, are legitimate conditions of enrollement. After all, a private school can have mandatory religion classes (as is the case in some religiously run schools).

    Free speech, free religion, security of one's property, and keeping and bearing arms are all rights. Attending a particular university is not. They cannot say that you cannot do those things. But they can say that you're not welcome there if you do.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    I would agree with carrying not being a crime (unless you refuse to leave when asked when it becomes trespass). However carrying weapons, and all the other items you list above, are legitimate conditions of enrollement. After all, a private school can have mandatory religion classes (as is the case in some religiously run schools).

    Free speech, free religion, security of one's property, and keeping and bearing arms are all rights. Attending a particular university is not. They cannot say that you cannot do those things. But they can say that you're not welcome there if you do.

    True, and that's kind of where I was going, though I think I probably said it badly if at all. Carrying a firearm should not in itself be a crime. Ever. Committing a violent crime, OTOH, is and should be. If a person is asked to leave, his being armed should not have any bearing on that (that is, it's not a crime to enter armed, it's a crime to not leave when told you are unwelcome.) The exception is government buildings, since by definition, they have a monopoly on whatever service they are supposed to be providing. I can't go to a different IRS, y'know?

    Blessings,
    B
     

    KPierce

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    Dec 7, 2008
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    I voted for all who are licensed to be able to carry. If I had my druthers I would seek for everyone in the country who can legally carry to carry everywhere. As someone pointed out to me once before, "An armed society is a polite society." and I can't agree more. I mean if every bad guy around knew that there were armed citizens all around them all the time, I think we would see a severely drastic drop in all forms of crime. But that's just my :twocents:
     

    ATM

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    ...if every bad guy around knew that there were armed citizens all around them all the time, I think we would see a severely drastic drop in all forms of crime. But that's just my :twocents:

    +1 May be just :twocents: but around here, we call it fact.
     

    Paul

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    Should those private universities also be able to limit or forbid your practice of your religion on their private property? What about your freedom of speech? Should they be subject to property restrictions? IMHO, the Constitution overrides all of these. They may say you have to leave the property, but there should be no law that says that by entering the property armed, (that is, by that action alone) you have committed a crime. (Texas' 30.06 law, for example)

    :twocents:

    Blessings,
    B

    i was meaning more of what you said. basically ask you to leave. but private university's can limit your practice of religion. my sister went to a private christian college and had to go to mass every sunday. since its private, if you want to go there, you play by their rules.
     

    Coach

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    Apr 15, 2008
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    The key concept is "prior restraint."

    Fire in a crowded theater? The equivalent to disarming people would be to gag folk in the theater so that they can't shout "fire." (Prior restraitn"

    Slander? Defamation of Character? Same thing.

    Minors are generally not considered competent to arrange their own affairs (why minors generally cannot sign contracts, cannot marry without parental consent, cannot do a whole raft of things). The teacher is, by agreement with the parents/guardians of those children, standing in a limited "in loco parentis" to the children (limited in that the authority usually only covers those things required to the teaching of the class--when I was a child other things, like corporal punishment, required specific parental consent) and so this, too, does not make the comparison you are trying to make.

    The point I was trying to make is that all civil rights and Civil liberties have limitations. Not carrying in certain places is not different it is a limitation. Not trying to say these things are the same but they are limits.
     

    Coach

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    I think Nate was the one who posted about the "fire in a theater" thing; When someone enters a theater, they are not gagged such that they cannot yell "Fire", but if they do happen to take that action, they are punished within the confines of the law. "Prior restraint", if I recall the term correctly, is unConstitutional.

    Ditto the first grade teacher: How would we know s/he had told the class to STFU? We would punish his/her indiscretion when one of the little darlings got home and said, "Mommy? What does STFU mean?" (after Mommy came to, that is. ;) ) In fact, in every case you posted in the above-quoted reply, the issue of prior restraint is central. Only when it comes to guns does anyone decide (fallaciously) that this would be a "reasonable restriction" or "common sense gun law", when in fact, all it does is disarm the good people, leaving the violent criminals free to carry out whatever ill they wish. IMHO, the complexities of which you speak exist solely in people's minds, not in reality.

    Blessings,
    Bill


    Bill if you are for liberty I would have assumed you would be against punishing the teacher since the teacher was exercising the First Amendment.
     

    dburkhead

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    The point I was trying to make is that all civil rights and Civil liberties have limitations. Not carrying in certain places is not different it is a limitation. Not trying to say these things are the same but they are limits.

    The problem is that you are comparing different categories of limitations. An apple is an apple and an orange is an orange, saying they are both pieces of fruit doesn't make an apple an orange or vice versa.

    An apples to apples comparison to disarming someone would be gagging them. The oranges to oranges comparison to not shouting fire in a crowded theater is not shooting the gun in the crowded theater.

    There is a difference between prior restraint and punishment for consequences and it is an important one.
     

    Coach

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    The problem is that you are comparing different categories of limitations. An apple is an apple and an orange is an orange, saying they are both pieces of fruit doesn't make an apple an orange or vice versa.

    An apples to apples comparison to disarming someone would be gagging them. The oranges to oranges comparison to not shouting fire in a crowded theater is not shooting the gun in the crowded theater.

    There is a difference between prior restraint and punishment for consequences and it is an important one.

    I guess Supreme Court decisions limiting free speech would be real similar to gaging wouldn't it. Nobody is hand cuffing you to keep you from using your gun. They are saying don't take it there. I see that as being like your speech is not protected if you say this or that. maybe we just don't define fruit the same way.
     

    dburkhead

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    I guess Supreme Court decisions limiting free speech would be real similar to gaging wouldn't it. Nobody is hand cuffing you to keep you from using your gun. They are saying don't take it there. I see that as being like your speech is not protected if you say this or that. maybe we just don't define fruit the same way.

    No, actually, they wouldn't. They are not removing your ability to speak. Preventing you from carrying the gun is taking away your ability. Prior restraint.

    You have to misuse the "free speech" (in one of several ways of which shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, unless there is, in fact, a fire is only one) before legal sanctions kick in. That is the key difference. They don't gag someone because they might say something actionable.

    Another example equivalent to disarming folk would be requiring prior approval from the government (in case you included something actionable, of course) before anything were published. The term for that is "censorship."

    Prior restraint. It is one thing that is, in everything except the 2nd for some reason, considered an absolutely unquestioned infringement of various rights. It's the line that cannot be crossed for other rights, but the line that is regularly, routinely even, crossed for the 2nd.

    One reason to hold with a "prior restraint" standard is that once you pass it there is no other natural line. If you allow prior restraint as "reasonable" then you've passed the widest part of the camel and there's pretty much nothing to keep the camel from creeping the rest of the way into the tent. At that point, the only hope is if the person in the tent can wake up to the danger soon enough and start driving the camel back out of the tent.

    You may want to nod sagely at each importuning of the camel, but others would rather have their rights back.
     

    Coach

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    You could carry a gun into the courtroom as a lawyer recently did. They are just going to punish you for it.

    I have not been met at the door and searched or run through metal detector in the Court Houses I have ever been in in my life. Seems this may be no different in reality than the first amendment example I gave. Despite your repeated defintion of Prior restraint the day to day enforcement in my experience is about the same. Nothing physical being done to prevent carrying in court. Thanks for you help though.

    Because it makes sense for people in court to not be armed, I guess we will just have to live with whatever fruit this is, and get adjusted to being unarmed in court.
     

    dburkhead

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    You could carry a gun into the courtroom as a lawyer recently did. They are just going to punish you for it.

    I have not been met at the door and searched or run through metal detector in the Court Houses I have ever been in in my life. Seems this may be no different in reality than the first amendment example I gave. Despite your repeated defintion of Prior restraint the day to day enforcement in my experience is about the same. Nothing physical being done to prevent carrying in court. Thanks for you help though.

    Because it makes sense for people in court to not be armed, I guess we will just have to live with whatever fruit this is, and get adjusted to being unarmed in court.

    They don't punish you for "carrying" your tongue into that crowded theater. They punish for "shouting fire." Carrying a gun is not analogous to shouting fire. _Shooting_ a gun is analogous to "shouting fire."

    The day-to-day enforcement is not the same. You don't have to give up the means of speaking to enter a place. You don't have to present writings to the government for review before publication. And you don't have to get government approval before buying a printer and/or copier. If you use free speech or a free press to commit slander/libel/incitement to riot/reckless endangerment/etc. then the law comes into play. Once again, that is a key difference.

    Lots of things "make sense" if you have the view of making excuses for government restriction of individual liberty.

    As for getting "adjusted," well, I don't plan to get "adjusted" to chains, thank you very much.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    Bill if you are for liberty I would have assumed you would be against punishing the teacher since the teacher was exercising the First Amendment.

    What an employer does in response to a misdeed on the part of an employee has no relationship to punishment of law. I favor the type of punishment that would befall a Coca Cola employee who was wearing his Coke uniform while in a Pepsi TV commercial. Big difference. I never said the teacher should be arrested, let alone tried/convicted.

    Remaining on topic, that being CC on a college campus, however ;) a strict reading of the 2A reveals that, when the dependant clause and prepositional phrases are removed, the basic sentence is, "The right shall not be infringed." Whose right? The right "of the people" (usually understood to be freemen). What right? The concurrent rights "to keep arms" and "to bear arms". Why is this right protected? Because "a well regulated militia [is] necessary to the security of a free state". All of that redundancy stated, the central issue is that "the right shall not be infringed." "By whom" is not defined, as the 1A defines that "Congress shall make no law..." I read this to say that the right shall not be infringed by Congress, by the states, by a municipality, or by a citizen. Does this mean that a person can enter my property armed and I cannot stop him from so doing? No; I can either allow him to remain, persuade him to leave, or force him to leave. What I cannot do, within the law as I read it is to remove his (fire)arms from him.

    If I cannot do this as a property owner, freeman, and citizen, I certainly am not willing to stipulate to my servant (gov't, in any form) having the power to do so.

    Blessings,
    B
     

    dburkhead

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    The day to day enforcement for court the same.

    So they require people to wear gags when going into the court? Thanks for the information; I was not aware of that. It must be a new ruling since the last time I was there.

    Oh, wait a minute. They aren't required to wear gags, are they. Therefore, the "day to day enforcement" is not the same. Why, I bet that you could even shout "fire" in the crowded courtroom without penatly if there was, in fact, a fire.

    Nope. The "day to day enforcement" is not the same. You can keep repeating it until you are blue in the face and it still won't be. One involves prior restraint. The other does not. That is a difference in kind, not just of type. And it's a difference recognized by law, not just part of a discussion on the Internet.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    I guess Supreme Court decisions limiting free speech would be real similar to gaging wouldn't it. Nobody is hand cuffing you to keep you from using your gun. They are saying don't take it there. I see that as being like your speech is not protected if you say this or that. maybe we just don't define fruit the same way.

    No. As you later pointed out, Supreme Court decisions limiting free speech only provide for legal action if that speech later reoccurs. They do not truly limit the speech (as by preventing you from being able to utter sounds.) If you are not permitted to have the gun, you don't need to be handcuffed to prevent you from using it- it's not there to use, if you are a person who obeys the law, that is.

    You could carry a gun into the courtroom as a lawyer recently did. They are just going to punish you for it.

    I have not been met at the door and searched or run through metal detector in the Court Houses I have ever been in in my life. Seems this may be no different in reality than the first amendment example I gave. Despite your repeated defintion of Prior restraint the day to day enforcement in my experience is about the same. Nothing physical being done to prevent carrying in court. Thanks for you help though.

    Because it makes sense for people in court to not be armed, I guess we will just have to live with whatever fruit this is, and get adjusted to being unarmed in court.

    Come to Tippecanoe Co. There is only one door that is accessible to the public, and to use it, you must pass a metal detector. (building employees and attorneys may use a different entrance.)

    They don't punish you for "carrying" your tongue into that crowded theater. They punish for "shouting fire." Carrying a gun is not analogous to shouting fire. _Shooting_ a gun is analogous to "shouting fire."

    The day-to-day enforcement is not the same. You don't have to give up the means of speaking to enter a place. You don't have to present writings to the government for review before publication. And you don't have to get government approval before buying a printer and/or copier. If you use free speech or a free press to commit slander/libel/incitement to riot/reckless endangerment/etc. then the law comes into play. Once again, that is a key difference.

    Lots of things "make sense" if you have the view of making excuses for government restriction of individual liberty.

    As for getting "adjusted," well, I don't plan to get "adjusted" to chains, thank you very much.

    Good comparison of yelling "Fire!" in a theater as being analagous to firing a gun in that same theater. For some reason, the first thought that crossed my mind was "shooting one's mouth off". :lmfao:

    The very serious point is sound, however. Only with the 2A is prior restraint treated as acceptable by some politicians and courts. Only with regard to people being readily able to defend themselves outside of their homes considered in light of "well, s/he might get angry and shoot someone." This is already changing, however: "Political Correctness" has already been initiated as a method of prior restraint upon the freedom of speech, and the "fairness doctrine" abandoned many years ago is again being considered to constrain the free press. It seems to me that the Left thinks they have won the gun debate and now feels safe in beginning it's attack upon the rest of the enumerated rights.

    Not without a fight they won't! No, not bravado or machismo. I'm not saying that this needs to be a "Molon Labe" or a "You can have 'em... bullets first!" moment. I'm saying that *I* will be continuing to write letters, make calls, and raise the awareness of others of like mind to do likewise. It is my intention to incite a peaceable riot, conducted in the mailboxes and on the telephones of our legislators. It is my intention to make them very aware that voting against this group of citizens is political suicide. It is my intention to carry this out without harming a hair on any of their pointed little heads, but rather to let them know that as the teacher in Coach's example can and should be fired by his/her employer, so should those elected to represent us who fail to do so and to uphold their oaths of office be fired at the first available election.

    As for chains... nah. I don't need "bling", and I'm certainly not forging the other kind... let alone fastening them on myself.

    Blessings,
    B
     
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