Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[IndyDave1776]

A Pakistani guy that I used to converse with took the position that muslims, jews and christians all worshipped the same god. That jews lost their way because of their continual disobedience to god. Christians lost their way because of the different translations into other languages ended up confusing the meaning. Since the Koran should only be read in the original Arabic, it is the only truly accurate account.

This reminds me of the following:

[video=youtube;HsCVuO1yeJc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsCVuO1yeJc[/video]

Now that we have established that Shakespeare must be read in the original Klingon...

That's a common basic belief. The Bible refines the message of the Torah, and any dispute between the two is resolved in favor if the newer text, the Bible. The Quran then further refines the religion, and any dispute between the Bible and Quran is resolved in favor of the newer Quran.

I am given to understand that this same principle also applies within the Islamic text, such that if there is a conflict, the latest revelation is authoritative. Incidentally, my understanding is that the Quran becomes progressively less kind to unbelievers as you move from chronological start to finish, creating some concerns from my perspective.

I would also point out that correct Christian interpretation maintains that the Scripture is the perfect, unerring revealed Word of God and does not contradict itself, so in the event you believe you have found a contradiction, the correct response is to study all Scripture addressing the subject until you resolve your apparent contradiction.

Do you know of any Muslims who believe that God sent His son, Jesus, to lead a perfect life and then be crucified so that the world could be offered forgiveness and eternal life with God?

That is the God that Christians worship. That is the God of the Old Testament. Anyone who does not believe it is worshiping a different being.

I'm probably the only one on INGO with that going on, though. You are arguing I misunderstand the nature of God, not that it is a different God. I find coconut to be disgusting. You may love coconut. We disagree on the nature of coconut, but we're talking about the same thing. Regardless, it's a distinction that is more important to you than to me.

Yes. Translations are never quite right, I think we can agree on that regardless of what language to what language is under consideration. Dirty little secret, though, I've forgotten most of it. It's been so long since I used it that it's mostly fallen out of my head. I was never to the level I would consider fluent, regardless, but I could read and have simple conversation. After 10 years of neglect of the skill, I could probably not read Little Red Riding Hood. A failure on my part, I'm just too comfortable with English translation and then the explanatory text offered with it. I think I understand better that way then in a language I sorta/kinda get. Plus Arabic is hard. *whine* why can't they use regular letters??? Technically a translation is not a Quran, its a translation of the Quran, and that's often an important distinction.

**Edited to add**

The translations are sort of like children's books. They are primers, used until you can digest more and more and eventually master Arabic and not need the crutch of translation any longer. I sort of stalled in the toddler phase of that process and then regressed back to infant level. If I'd stuck with it, I'd probably be proficient, but instead I failed and am basically sticking alphabet blocks in my mouth to try and figure out what sound they make again.

I would say that regardless of how you parse the nature of the disagreement, Christian and Moslem notions of God are mutually exclusive. I will agree that translation by its nature is less precise than some would like to believe it to be, but it is also possible to understand the nature of the translation(s) into your language to compensate for things that just don't translate well. This is the reason why you can go to the Christian book store and get at least one exhaustive concordance, at least one Hebrew concordance, at least one Greek concordance, and at least one expository dictionary keyed to the translation of your choice. Proper understanding and use of those books is sufficient to adjust for any imprecise elements of translation. It is a much more efficient way of achieving excellent results than simply dictating that you WILL learn Hebrew and Greek.

I also have to be enough of a contrarian to point out that the Old and New Testaments were complete several centuries before the appearance of the Quran, which would seem, by Islamic standards, to cast aspersions on its treatment of events which predate it.

But Steve, using your logic, do jews worship the same god as us Christians do?

Personally, I would argue that it is a technical disagreement. The Jews do not doubt that there is to be a Messiah. They simply do not accept Jesus bar Joseph as that Messiah.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The "real Muslim" argument is a double edged sword and speaks to public perceptions of Islam.

True enough. It's also an internal issue. I think this is endemic in many religions. I know I've heard plenty of Christians state that some other church isn't really Christian because (whatever doctrine dispute is at issue), and I'm sure the Jewish community has the same. There are a lot of schools of Islam, not even counting individual variation. I'm sure Boko Haram isn't real hep to include Sufis as "Real Muslims". I was taught Druze aren't Muslim, although I see many secular studies that consider them so.

 

[Jludo]

True enough. It's also an internal issue. I think this is endemic in many religions. I know I've heard plenty of Christians state that some other church isn't really Christian because (whatever doctrine dispute is at issue), and I'm sure the Jewish community has the same. There are a lot of schools of Islam, not even counting individual variation. I'm sure Boko Haram isn't real hep to include Sufis as "Real Muslims". I was taught Druze aren't Muslim, although I see many secular studies that consider them so.

Exactly, everyone has their own interpretation to their own favorite religious text.
I always thought that was a compelling argument against organized religion, that is all these different sects believing God is telling them theirs is correct. They are either not hearing God correctly or God can't keep his story straight, I tend to believe the former.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I am given to understand that this same principle also applies within the Islamic text, such that if there is a conflict, the latest revelation is authoritative. Incidentally, my understanding is that the Quran becomes progressively less kind to unbelievers as you move from chronological start to finish, creating some concerns from my perspective.....

I would also point out that correct Christian interpretation maintains that the Scripture is the perfect, unerring revealed Word of God and does not contradict itself, so in the event you believe you have found a contradiction, the correct response is to study all Scripture addressing the subject until you resolve your apparent contradiction....
....


It is a much more efficient way of achieving excellent results than simply dictating that you WILL learn Hebrew and Greek...

#1) I was not taught that. There may very well be schools that do.

#2) As stated, I am not a literalist and contradictions are no problem for me. If you wish to debate if the Bible is perfect or has contradictions, I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there who are willing to do so. I hope I've made myself clear I'm not hear to tell you your religion is wrong. I'm also sure you will not convince me mine is wrong. Or that Buddhists are wrong. You could probably convince me athiests are wrong, although I'd counter argue that most athiests I've ever spoken with actually only disbelieve in certain understandings of God. If God is infinite and omnipotent, he's not going to be pigeonholed by me.

#3) ...and if you wish to convert people who are illiterate, poor, and have limited access to books? Yes, in the relatively wealthy modern day US with free and compulsory education, simply heading to your local bookstore and picking up a hand full of books will let you get a good understanding. Let's remember the US isn't the world, and today isn't all of history. Much of the world and much of history does not have that luxury.

 

[IndyDave1776]

General Question? Since Abraham also spent his time being a father to Ishmael,at what point did his teachings of his faith begin to differ between the two branches of his linage?

The question is not definitively answered, but I consider it reasonable to believe that the split starts at or about the time Ishmael and his mother were banished.

I don't mean to impose, but strictly speaking Jews and Christians do not worship the same God because the Jews deny the deity of Jesus Christ, one third of the Godhead. By the way, the Muslim denial of Christ's deity demonstrates that Islam and Christianity have totally distinct views of God. You can't have it both ways - they make mutually exclusive claims - logically, both cannot be correct.

I would argue that they aren't having it both ways and do not deny the Messiah, they simply did not accept Jesus son of Joseph to be that Messiah. Rejecting a specific personage is different from rejecting the concept or the nature of God.

I don't have anything in particular against anyone of ANY religious persuasion (or none, as it may be) HOWEVER, I'm not blind - nor will I pretend to be blind - to the stated intentions of a fairly large sect of the religion which has promised me and mine forced conversion, slavery or death. Since I have no way to tell WHICH of this sizable section of the world's population is bent toward that goal, I'm inclined - reasonable enough - to be wary of anyone who fits the profile. And, just as we didn't separate the Nazis from Germans when we bombed and shot our way through Europe to defeat them during WWII, unless Muslims do something visible and tangible to separate themselves from this "radical" sect, I don't know how else we're going to solve our problem but to separate "Muslims" from the rest of us. Not an ideal solution, but unless someone comes up with a better one, we may have to go with that one.

And I will say this. It may not be a great solution, to kill everyone who raises a hand against us; then to kill their families, burn their farms, kill their animals, and salt their farmland so that it won't produce for hundreds of years. But as the Romans showed the Carthaginians, it IS a solution.

Well said. I personally like to be fair and just, but am not willing to capitulate or turn to a suicidal position in the name of the attempt.

If God is omnipotent and infinite, he can be different things to different people. He is not limited to our understanding.

While it is very true that God is not limited by our finite understanding, it is also true that He does not violate His revelation about Himself.

Don't they? They just not recognize his son?

Again, as I see it, the issue is not a disagreement on the nature of God or his revelation, but rather whether or not one accepts Jesus son of Joseph a/k/a Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

 

[Lil Bob]

I read the article that was the subject of this thread. The first thing I noticed is that it is written by a conservative group the National Review. I am not condemning the National Review as I have read several articles from it. All political magazines, papers, talk shows, radio shows are designed to send a message that they are interested in. That is how I took this article when I read it. I have recently had a fear of terrorism increasing in this country, but reading this thread has brought me to look at it differently.

Yes, I believe what is going on with ISIS is really scary, and do to some degree worry about more terrorism in this country. I do not condemn Islam for this problem. I wonder if ISIS or previously Al Qaeda is not just a power grab in the name of religion. Look at ISIS as they are referring to the areas that they control as a "Caliphate" or a country. A group of people using religion as the tool to gain power and control people.

When I really think about it I have to wonder about all the other "crazies" that we have in this country that are out there mass killing people. The white guy that gunned down a group of black people in the church down south this year, the recent killing where a guy killed 3 people outside of a planned parenthood in Colorado, to the guy that killed all those people in the movie theater in Aurora Colorado a couple of years ago. This is a mix of people that have killed people because of race hatred, mental problems, to a guy that was either driven by religion or politics over abortion, and these is not a isolated incidents over the last couple of years.

I am not an overly religious person, but I do believe in a higher power. I do not believe in organized religion for many reasons. I believe that ultimately religion is about the way that we lead our lives, ethical, moral values, helping others, etc. It is not about sitting in the church pew on Sundays. We cannot blame a complete religion for what the few do within it. All of this talk about banning Muslims from coming into the this country is idiotic, and is being politicized by people who are pandering to our fears for political gain. There is not much about politics that is ethical or moral anymore.

I served in the Navy for 20 years and I have traveled all over the world. As much as we do not understand Arab society, they do not understand ours. They gain there impressions of us about the same way that we do, by watching tv, and listening to biased reporting. The same could be said about Europeans, Turks, Israel, Egypt, UAE, Bahrain, or many of the countries that I visited on deployments overseas. I have seen it with all of the countries I visited, their perceptions that they held of us as Americans, or ours as Americans towards them was usually all wrong. I found some of these countries different and I did not understand them, but I was trying to understand them as an American in a foreign society. Our societies are different and have different cultural norms.

In the end I find much of this thread to be all the things that we complain about in other people - bigoted. We are judging a complete group of people based on a bad few.

BehindBlueI's - I have not ever met you, but I have gained a world of respect for you after following all of this thread.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Exactly, everyone has their own interpretation to their own favorite religious text.
I always thought that was a compelling argument against organized religion, that is all these different sects believing God is telling them theirs is correct. They are either not hearing God correctly or God can't keep his story straight, I tend to believe the former.

I understand. There is another option, though, which I've presented a few times. God can be different things to different people. I am very finite. To oversimplify greatly: to my boss, I'm a resource to be used. To my wife, I'm a companion. To my son, I'm a guide. To Indiucky I'm someone to talk with. Obviously that's one dimensional and every person is more than one thing to each person. My point is, which of those is true? All of them...and none of them, as they fail to encompass the whole. God is infinite. Even a sliver of infinity is, itself, infinite. He can certainly be different things to different people.

If I've worn that analogy out, how about a good teacher? Does a good teacher not change to what you need them to be? Nurture you when you need it, point you in the right direction when you need it, kick you in the backside when you need it? If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then he would certainly know what aspect of himself a person needs to grow, mature, and be a better person. To give you the best chance to accept that?

 

[BugI02]

And a complete lack of understanding of what drove the Jews to form Israel. They were being persecuted by plenty of folks of various religions and no religion. If you think Jews and atheists get along fine, maybe a quick look at Russian history may tell a different story?

Correct me if I'm wrong, BBI; it was also my impression that the creation of Israel was favored somewhat because it solved the problem 'over there' -without the need for the US and the UK to take in the diaspora.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

While it is very true that God is not limited by our finite understanding, it is also true that He does not violate His revelation about Himself.

Could, perhaps, his revelation about himself be different to different people? Do you reveal yourself the same to everyone you know? And you're finite.

Let's voyage into the world of wild conjecture for a moment. Would it be possible for God to create an infinite number of universes, with each universe specifically for each individual soul? That everything you know is a figment who's sole purpose is to prod you to improve?

I don't believe any major religion holds such, but if God is omnipotent and infinite, could he not do so (which is a distinct question from "has he done so?")

 

[IndyDave1776]

So for hundreds of years you're saying Catholics simply misinterpreted the bible? I believe they used it to justify killing non believers and forcing them to convert to Christianity.

No, they didn't 'misinterpret' it, any more than Dick Armey 'mispronounced' Barney Frank's name or people like Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer 'misunderstand' the Constitution. They flagrantly disregarded it with the low point in my reckoning being the Pope who history recalls saying, "What has this myth of Christ not brought us?" referring to the trappings of the office and the political power that went with it. Fortunately, even though I tend to have my theological differences with Rome, the Catholic Church is in far better hands now than then.

Many Jewish scholars would say that of the Torah. Not sure about NT and greek. I don'the claim to be an expert on Christianity.

Again, we have ways to deal with that adequately.

Quick! Break out the cheeseburgers!

Better put some bacon on those cheeseburgers!

Correct me if I'm wrong, BBI; it was also my impression that the creation of Israel was favored somewhat because it solved the problem 'over there' -without the need for the US and the UK to take in the diaspora.

I feel compelled to point out that at the time, it was part of the British Empire and therefore it was Britain's prerogative to do as the British saw fit.

 

[BugI02]

Oh and what about Haile Selassie?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Correct me if I'm wrong, BBI; it was also my impression that the creation of Israel was favored somewhat because it solved the problem 'over there' -without the need for the US and the UK to take in the diaspora.

I don't feel qualified to answer how the location was chosen, other than it was believed to be sparsely populated and empires displacing indigenous people was sort of the rage at the time. What I do know is that US and UK Jews were harder to recruit because they were relatively comfortable where they were. It's tougher to motivate someone to move when they've got a decent home, a family, a good job, and no one is out to kill them. Jews in other parts of Europe and Russia had a much harder lot and were more willing to take the risks associated with it.

MartyrMade Podcast #1 - On the Conflict Between Israel and Palestine - MartyrMade

This podcast does a good job of talking about the founding of Israel, IMO, and I certainly can't add anything to it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I feel compelled to point out that at the time, it was part of the British Empire and therefore it was Britain's prerogative to do as the British saw fit.

It was under the Ottomans when the formation of Israel was being planned and during early implementation. I don't feel like combing through my books at the moment, so forgive me for linking to a simplified history.

Israel Before the State - My Jewish Learning

 

[IndyDave1776]

Could, perhaps, his revelation about himself be different to different people? Do you reveal yourself the same to everyone you know? And you're finite.

Let's voyage into the world of wild conjecture for a moment. Would it be possible for God to create an infinite number of universes, with each universe specifically for each individual soul? That everything you know is a figment who's sole purpose is to prod you to improve?

I don't believe any major religion holds such, but if God is omnipotent and infinite, could he not do so (which is a distinct question from "has he done so?")

In the first case, I would say that two different issues are being addressed. No, I don't tell everything about myself to everyone, rendering each person to whom I reveal anything the possessor of an incomplete revelation. That is entirely different from making contradictory revelations, which, at least from my perspective cannot happen with God since the Scripture says that he does not lie, and making contradictory revelations would require a falsehood being told.

You raise a very interesting speculation. Yes, it is entirely possible. In the event it were true, you would be a particularly interesting element of that program, particularly given your gift for compelling one to think deeply about things and doing so in a way that promotes an obligation to take a step back and honestly contemplate rather than to become irritating, which I have to admit that I do find some of the things some other people say to be more an irritation than a call for closer review of the things I accept as truth.

Rounding out your last thought, I have found no indication that He has, but there is certainly no justification I could make for definitively saying that He could not.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You raise a very interesting speculation. Yes, it is entirely possible. In the event it were true, you would be a particularly interesting element of that program, particularly given your gift for compelling one to think deeply about things and doing so in a way that promotes an obligation to take a step back and honestly contemplate rather than to become irritating, which I have to admit that I do find some of the things some other people say to be more an irritation than a call for closer review of the things I accept as truth.

Rounding out your last thought, I have found no indication that He has, but there is certainly no justification I could make for definitively saying that He could not.

Ok. So, in the next step, I think we will find common ground in that God is infinitely smarter than us. If he were to design an entire universe for you, you would not be able to outsmart his plan and see the edges, so to speak.

And if he is omnipotent and omniscient, he would find it no challenge to not only design a universe for each of us, but to interlock those universes so that we could interact but through our own perceptions. I could, hypothetically, have a Sufi Muslim, a Baptist, a Catholic, and a Buddhist who were all absolutely correct in their understanding of God based on his revelation to them, yet be be completely wrong in the other person's revelation? And it be seamless? As well as those who had the best opportunity to accept God, tailored to them as his message was, yet still rejected the opportunity and were thus denied God through their own choice? Is separation from God not what is often considered Hell?

Now, again, I put this forth as a hypothetical. Something an infinite God COULD do, not HAS done. But is it not, then, within the realm of possibility for God to be true to himself yet each of us have a different understanding of him...and be correct?

 

[Jludo]

I understand. There is another option, though, which I've presented a few times. God can be different things to different people. I am very finite. To oversimplify greatly: to my boss, I'm a resource to be used. To my wife, I'm a companion. To my son, I'm a guide. To Indiucky I'm someone to talk with. Obviously that's one dimensional and every person is more than one thing to each person. My point is, which of those is true? All of them...and none of them, as they fail to encompass the whole. God is infinite. Even a sliver of infinity is, itself, infinite. He can certainly be different things to different people.

If I've worn that analogy out, how about a good teacher? Does a good teacher not change to what you need them to be? Nurture you when you need it, point you in the right direction when you need it, kick you in the backside when you need it? If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then he would certainly know what aspect of himself a person needs to grow, mature, and be a better person. To give you the best chance to accept that?

I agree that that's a healthy attitude to have. I think very few religious people would agree with you though, I think most religious people believe they have the one objective truth, not leaving any room for a broader interpretation of an infinite God.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I agree that that's a healthy attitude to have. I think very few religious people would agree with you though, I think most religious people believe they have the one objective truth, not leaving any room for a broader interpretation of an infinite God.

That's ok. I don't always agree with myself either.

The only thing I really know is God is beyond my understanding, and that he's more than me. I suspect and believe many things, but if you get right down to it, that's all I can say I really know.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I could, hypothetically, have a Sufi Muslim, a Baptist, a Catholic, and a Buddhist who were all absolutely correct in their understanding of God based on his revelation to them, yet be be completely wrong in the other person's revelation? And it be seamless? As well as those who had the best opportunity to accept God, tailored to them as his message was, yet still rejected the opportunity and were thus denied God through their own choice? Is separation from God not what is often considered Hell?

Now, again, I put this forth as a hypothetical. Something an infinite God COULD do, not HAS done. But is it not, then, within the realm of possibility for God to be true to himself yet each of us have a different understanding of him...and be correct?

I see a limit here. Again, accepting the revelation that God does not lie, He, by His own nature could not supply conflicting information about His nature, as it would necessarily require a falsehood to have been told.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I see a limit here. Again, accepting the revelation that God does not lie, He, by His own nature could not supply conflicting information about His nature, as it would necessarily require a falsehood to have been told.

We are the limitation, not God. Can we agree on that? That our finite mind cannot hold the entirety of God?

If so, and if something is infinite, something that conflicts in our mind may simply be something we don't understand. Isn't that what you said about the Bible, that more study is required if something appears to conflict?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm actually going to stop with this line of reasoning. I find myself trying to convince you when what I really wanted to do was explain a bit of my own thought process and then I went too far down the rabbit hole of wanting to be right in showing you that you are right...making you wrong. Sort of. I'm going to stand down and leave it at the only thing I truly know is God is beyond my understanding and more than me.