Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[IndyDave1776]

I'm actually going to stop with this line of reasoning. I find myself trying to convince you when what I really wanted to do was explain a bit of my own thought process and then I went too far down the rabbit hole of wanting to be right in showing you that you are right...making you wrong. Sort of. I'm going to stand down and leave it at the only thing I truly know is God is beyond my understanding and more than me.

Maybe we are both just getting tired?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Maybe we are both just getting tired?

Heh, with my shift I'm not used to going to bed until 3am or so. I think I'm just more tired of the topic and it seems silly to keep trying to convince you you're wrong when I believe you are right for you and that's all that's relevant to me in this particular arena. I just got caught up in being competitive.

I thought about PMing you this, but since I've already laid pretty much everything out, I might as well do this in public too. I'll explain the precursors to my conversion to Islam, and then I think I'll bow out for a bit.

I grew up with some neighbors that were Christians and meant it. They were happy, they were a tight family, they were moral and just people. They also read the Bible literally, that the world was really completely flooded except for Noah, etc. I was quite impressed with them. I really wanted to be like them. But I sucked at it. Oh, I could follow the rules and say the right things, but I couldn't believe the right things. The literal reading just made me rage in my own head about how illogical everything was. I *wanted* faith, but I couldn't get it. If I'd known about allegorical reading, that wouldn't have been an issue, but I was a barefoot hillbilly and didn't know anything other than the binary choice of literal reading or athiest. I chose athiest, as I simply couldn't reconcile all the logical contradictions about people living for centuries, animals on a hand built boat repopulating the Earth, etc. By the time I left for the military I was an athiest, and kind of an ass about it. I was the guy who wanted to prove athiesm, to stick the contradictions I saw in people's face and to break their faith because they were wrong.

I became a worse and worse version of myself. Not because I was an athiest, but because I was an ass, and arrogant, and young, and stupid, and convinced of my own invincibility. You know, a young soldier. I had a chip on my shoulder, I started drinking more and more and more, etc. Then I got hurt and spiraled real bad. Being a soldier was most of my identity. Then I couldn't be a good soldier any more. Even now it hurts to write that. I was mad at everyone and everything, so I decided to take it out on my liver. I was unhealthy, I married the wrong person for the wrong reasons (and she was a good person, we just weren't right for each other), I was a drunk and I was only getting worse. I alienated nearly everyone but my father and grandmother, including my wife and we were learning to hate each other.

So, one day, I had an epiphany. Sort of. I woke up looked down, realized that laying down I couldn't see my feet and a voice said "you are a fat bastard"...then I realized it was me who'd said it and that I was right. That sort of got the ball rolling for me to realize I was a fat, bitter, angry bastard wasting my life in a job I did not find fulfilling, a marriage that I either needed to drastically reshape or move on from for both of our sakes, and was wasting my life in multiple ways. I started exercising, stopped drinking, and then I was rewarded. A radio program about British soldiers becoming security contractors gave me the idea of being a quasi-soldier again, do something worth doing, and pretty much start over. And I did. I had no intention of finding a religion, I wasn't looking, I was pretty satisfied with being an athiest and wasn't really mulling religious questions in my head. Certainly not Islam, I wasn't too far off from what some folks here think today. There's probably some good ones, but most of them are blowing themselves up or throwing rocks at Jews. Then I got there and was confronted with undeniable evidence my stereotypes were way off. I made friends with guys from Yemen and Oman, I saw the faith they had (not religion...faith) and I started considering if it would work for me. I did what I normally do when I'm curious about something, read everything I can find on it, and learned about allegorical reading vs literal reading, the history, etc. and took the first steps toward conversion, eventually converting officially.

There is no doubt in my mind it made me a better person. Not instantly, of course, but by increments. I relearned to live with purpose and to not waste opportunities. I learned to accept my limitations instead of being angered by them (although I regress on this front sometimes). I tamped down my arrogance (not fully), became (slightly) less abrasive, and within my own limits attempted to be empathetic. I found a calling in the idea of seeking truth, the strong protecting the weak, and in the concept of fair administration of justice, and that kindled my interest in law enforcement, which obviously led me to my current job and the opportunity to make my community better. It led me to my new (and current) wife, to reconnect with family and friends, and to strive to be better tomorrow than I am today.

It was, in short, what I needed and when I needed it in a form I could accept. There was nothing truly NEW in this, God had reached out to me many times before in many different ways, but this was the right time and the right presentation and I was in the right place, and that was all the difference. God did that, and he did it for me, because I needed it. My faith and my religion may not work for you, and you may not accept it as right, but it was and is certainly what is right for me. If your faith and your religion fits you as well as this fits me, why would I try to change that?

 

[IndyDave1776]

I am about to turn in. I will have to re-read this when I am really awake. In the frame of mind I am in, it is reminding me of having to read and write a report on 'The Poems of Heaven and Hell of Ancient Mesopotamia'. I tried reading it and couldn't make a shred of sense out of it other than picking up on the fact that every time a new character was introduced, the story was taken from the top and repeated in its entirety up to the introduction of that character, and then new material was added, wash, rinse, repeat. Also from discussion in class, I picked up on some of the characters reminding me of certain national and/or ethnic groups from history. When I wrote the paper, I played on this and the format of writing up to the introduction of a new character, then duplicating the entire document and continuing, and when I got finished, I had no idea what the hell I had said, but I got an A on it.

 

[rambone]

I don't think anyone should quit INGO. I don't approve of the word terrorist being thrown around glibly. I certainly don't the government to initiate mass persecutions, set up concentration camps, and put "bounties" on peoples heads over matters of religion or free speech. Good grief, people.

But I will add to this discussion of Islam & Christianity. Simply put, there is no way that both religions are simultaneously true. The books are contradictory, the historical narratives are contradictory, the prophets are contradictory, the revelations are contradictory, the moralities are contradictory, the natures of God and Allah are contradictory, the natures of Man are contradictory, the natures of sin are contradictory, the commands are contradictory, the versions of afterlife are contradictory, and the salvation plans are contradictory. They both demand their own exclusivity.

Accept it or not, the Christian Bible is incredibly "binary," and this is what it says:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." (John 3:36)

"Let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:10-12)

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5)

"Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:22-23)

"Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:12)
​

So there it is. The Bible is replete with declarations of one exclusive path to salvation depending upon Jesus Christ alone; it emphatically closes down all other notions for obtaining eternal life.

Islam cannot be true unless the Bible is a tome of God-sized lies. (And vice versa.) There's no way around it. Either Jesus is Son of God, or he isn't. Either one system is false, or both are false. There is no plausible scenario where both systems are both true, together. None whatsoever.

 

[foszoe]

BBI,

Haven't read all of this thread. I stopped after reading your question.

Whatever you decide, I hope you pm me some contact info.

For me, trying to be live a Christian life is more important than anything and if this forum got in the way then I would leave. I don't separate my Internet life from my work life from my personal life. Being Christ like is my ultimate goal.

I respect you very much and if this place causes you to lose peace then I will go against the grain and say you should leave.

But not until you send me that pm.

 

[chipbennett]

If God is omnipotent and infinite, he can be different things to different people. He is not limited to our understanding.

But God cannot lie. God cannot be contradictory. God cannot say "I am X", and then demonstrate Himself to be the exact opposite of X.

 

[chipbennett]

Let's also keep in mind the Quran is written in Arabic. Many words do not translate very well to English. That leaves Islamophics a lot or room to play with what it's really saying. Unless you read, speak, and understand Arabic you will not get 100% of the meaning.

I've heard this argument before. But, if you combine this with something BBI said earlier, about God revealing Himself through Mohammad in a manner that acknowledges that revelation changes (I'm paraphrasing here) to facilitate the current understanding and sociopolitical landscape (e.g. these are the commandments for times of peace, and these are the commandments for times of war, etc.), why would God only reveal Himself in a manner in which He is only fully understood in one, specific language? Is God okay with not being fully understood (and therefore, not fully accepted) by those who are not literate in Arabic? Does God expect the whole world to become literate in Arabic? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the implications of either.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

BBI , I hope you don't leave because you bring a lot to INGO discussions and you'll be missed .

HOWEVER , you are one guy with one guy's opinion .

When I see a site like this Islam: The Politically Incorrect Truth that tracks what SO MANY of your " brothers & sisters " are doing in the name of their religion , I have to ask if you really have an understanding of your religion .

Or , is that so many have it wrong ?

IMO , ( islam) it is a false religion born out of Sarah and Abraham's mistakes .

Instead of waiting on on God to fulfill His promise they took it upon themselves to do what they thought was right , and what a mess it has created .

When it comes to Trump's plan , I agree . Shut it down till we get it figured it .

If doing something that's in the best interests of the country makes you feel some kinda way about it , that's too bad .

 

[chipbennett]

Now, again, I put this forth as a hypothetical. Something an infinite God COULD do, not HAS done. But is it not, then, within the realm of possibility for God to be true to himself yet each of us have a different understanding of him...and be correct?

Speaking hypothetically, I agree that God COULD do anything at all. But, I do not believe that God HAS done such a thing in reality. If God created infinite ways for man to seek and to reach Him, then why would God command those who seek/reach him through Jesus Christ to go out into all the world, and evangelize? Why would we need to help someone else seek/reach God through Jesus Christ, if God has already created some other means for that person to do so?

And again: how can Jesus claim to be God, and claim, "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life. No man comes to the Father except through me." if that statement were untrue?

 

[chipbennett]

That's ok. I don't always agree with myself either.

The only thing I really know is God is beyond my understanding, and that he's more than me. I suspect and believe many things, but if you get right down to it, that's all I can say I really know.

On this point, we agree wholeheartedly. How can the finite truly understand the infinite? How can that which exists in the temporal truly understand that which is eternal?

 

[foszoe]

Gd condescending to meet us where we are. That is the message of the Bible. God will reveal himself to anyone at any time in any religious tradition if they are genuinely seeking.

We are the limitation, not God. Can we agree on that? That our finite mind cannot hold the entirety of God?

If so, and if something is infinite, something that conflicts in our mind may simply be something we don't understand. Isn't that what you said about the Bible, that more study is required if something appears to conflict?

 

[ajeandy]

But God cannot lie. God cannot be contradictory. God cannot say "I am X", and then demonstrate Himself to be the exact opposite of X.

Who says.

 

[PaulKersey]

Who says.

Obviously, Scripture states that God cannot lie. The trustworthiness of God is certainly one of the Bible's overarching themes. For a Being to be God, His nature would be greatly elevated from that of His creation. The idea of the one God of the universe lying to His creatures is a self-defeating concept. The only reason we have a concept of truth is because of God's existence. A lying deity would not not be God at all - he would be the devil.

 

[jamil]

For people who have only read bits and pieces of this thread, I encourage you to read the whole thing. It is mostly an example of how people with widly differing opinions and beliefs should discuss things.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Heh, with my shift I'm not used to going to bed until 3am or so. I think I'm just more tired of the topic and it seems silly to keep trying to convince you you're wrong when I believe you are right for you and that's all that's relevant to me in this particular arena. I just got caught up in being competitive.

I thought about PMing you this, but since I've already laid pretty much everything out, I might as well do this in public too. I'll explain the precursors to my conversion to Islam, and then I think I'll bow out for a bit.

I grew up with some neighbors that were Christians and meant it. They were happy, they were a tight family, they were moral and just people. They also read the Bible literally, that the world was really completely flooded except for Noah, etc. I was quite impressed with them. I really wanted to be like them. But I sucked at it. Oh, I could follow the rules and say the right things, but I couldn't believe the right things. The literal reading just made me rage in my own head about how illogical everything was. I *wanted* faith, but I couldn't get it. If I'd known about allegorical reading, that wouldn't have been an issue, but I was a barefoot hillbilly and didn't know anything other than the binary choice of literal reading or athiest. I chose athiest, as I simply couldn't reconcile all the logical contradictions about people living for centuries, animals on a hand built boat repopulating the Earth, etc. By the time I left for the military I was an athiest, and kind of an ass about it. I was the guy who wanted to prove athiesm, to stick the contradictions I saw in people's face and to break their faith because they were wrong.

I became a worse and worse version of myself. Not because I was an athiest, but because I was an ass, and arrogant, and young, and stupid, and convinced of my own invincibility. You know, a young soldier. I had a chip on my shoulder, I started drinking more and more and more, etc. Then I got hurt and spiraled real bad. Being a soldier was most of my identity. Then I couldn't be a good soldier any more. Even now it hurts to write that. I was mad at everyone and everything, so I decided to take it out on my liver. I was unhealthy, I married the wrong person for the wrong reasons (and she was a good person, we just weren't right for each other), I was a drunk and I was only getting worse. I alienated nearly everyone but my father and grandmother, including my wife and we were learning to hate each other.

So, one day, I had an epiphany. Sort of. I woke up looked down, realized that laying down I couldn't see my feet and a voice said "you are a fat bastard"...then I realized it was me who'd said it and that I was right. That sort of got the ball rolling for me to realize I was a fat, bitter, angry bastard wasting my life in a job I did not find fulfilling, a marriage that I either needed to drastically reshape or move on from for both of our sakes, and was wasting my life in multiple ways. I started exercising, stopped drinking, and then I was rewarded. A radio program about British soldiers becoming security contractors gave me the idea of being a quasi-soldier again, do something worth doing, and pretty much start over. And I did. I had no intention of finding a religion, I wasn't looking, I was pretty satisfied with being an athiest and wasn't really mulling religious questions in my head. Certainly not Islam, I wasn't too far off from what some folks here think today. There's probably some good ones, but most of them are blowing themselves up or throwing rocks at Jews. Then I got there and was confronted with undeniable evidence my stereotypes were way off. I made friends with guys from Yemen and Oman, I saw the faith they had (not religion...faith) and I started considering if it would work for me. I did what I normally do when I'm curious about something, read everything I can find on it, and learned about allegorical reading vs literal reading, the history, etc. and took the first steps toward conversion, eventually converting officially.

There is no doubt in my mind it made me a better person. Not instantly, of course, but by increments. I relearned to live with purpose and to not waste opportunities. I learned to accept my limitations instead of being angered by them (although I regress on this front sometimes). I tamped down my arrogance (not fully), became (slightly) less abrasive, and within my own limits attempted to be empathetic. I found a calling in the idea of seeking truth, the strong protecting the weak, and in the concept of fair administration of justice, and that kindled my interest in law enforcement, which obviously led me to my current job and the opportunity to make my community better. It led me to my new (and current) wife, to reconnect with family and friends, and to strive to be better tomorrow than I am today.

It was, in short, what I needed and when I needed it in a form I could accept. There was nothing truly NEW in this, God had reached out to me many times before in many different ways, but this was the right time and the right presentation and I was in the right place, and that was all the difference. God did that, and he did it for me, because I needed it. My faith and my religion may not work for you, and you may not accept it as right, but it was and is certainly what is right for me. If your faith and your religion fits you as well as this fits me, why would I try to change that?

A friend and I were talking the other day about how something has gone terribly wrong with the Christian churches the last several decades or so, in that we have not only driven people away but fail so often in attracting good people into the fold. Much like you, I grew up going to church on Sundays, etc. Somewhere, along the way, my mom and dad just quit going. We (my brother and I) were still pretty young at the time, so I don't know that they even told us why. I just remember going to several different churches, then, when I was probably 10 years old or so, we quit going. We still did Christian type things - saying grace before meals, etc. And, as far as I know, mom and dad were still "believers" when they died.

Fast forward many years, after many, many Sundays of good intentions, I felt like I was being called. Practically yelled at by God to please come back. And when I did, like Indiucky said, I just surrendered and asked for Jesus Christ to come into my life -- not just to do the "good Christian-like" stuff I had been doing, but to actually accept my repentance and allow me to receive the Holy Spirit. It was a real experience. Something you can't explain. (Sometimes, I think He's preparing me for something. And I'd be lying if I didn't say that thought causes me some anxiety.) But like you, BBI, it has changed me. Again, like you mentioned, the "old me" still wants to sneak out sometimes and it can be a struggle to eschew that part and shake off old baggage. On the good side though, not too long ago, my wife even commented that she thinks we're both happier since then. I think she's right--it's just different.

I'm glad for you. I wish "my team" would have won you over but if that works for you, I'm glad.

 

[T.Lex]

I thought about PMing you this, but since I've already laid pretty much everything out, I might as well do this in public too.

Well done.

I'm glad for you. I wish "my team" would have won you over but if that works for you, I'm glad.

Hereby incorporating by reference the past intra-INGO disagreements on this, I'll just say that technically it is the same "team."

Then I'll re-bail from this thread and allow rambone another opportunity to explain how I'm wrong.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Well done.



Hereby incorporating by reference the past intra-INGO disagreements on this, I'll just say that technically it is the same "team."

Then I'll re-bail from this thread and allow rambone another opportunity to explain how I'm wrong.

I'll save him some effort: You got out of bed this morning, and it's downhill from there!

 

[T.Lex]

I'll save him some effort: You got out of bed this morning, and it's downhill from there!

Amen, after certain events this week, I'm thankful not only that I got out of bed, but that I got to kiss my wife and kids goodbye this morning.

 

[Birds Away]

So, no one has gotten banned yet?

 

[T.Lex]

So, no one has gotten banned yet?

Volunteering?