Did Law Change? Unreal incident at clinic...

[Rookie]

actually i did read them. and there was a mention of that this is the reason one guy carries concealed. and it was brushed off. the only other thing i saw was cop bashing and talk of lawsuits. its very clear that most leo's dont agree with open carry. so why go through the trouble? what are the advantages? i think most people do it for no other reason than to prove that they can do it. and they are the ones that get hassled by police. cops do what they want. and thats not gonna change.

If that were the reason I OC, then my response would be: so we should tuck our tails and fall in line because cops do what they want? Or should be expect public SERVANTS to actually SERVE?

 

[cobber]

This sounds like some kind of personal fantasy of yours (furry cuffs and all)...

If Officer Bambi is doing the arrest, maybe.

 

[Hayseed_40]

actually i did read them. and there was a mention of that this is the reason one guy carries concealed. and it was brushed off. the only other thing i saw was cop bashing and talk of lawsuits. its very clear that most leo's dont agree with open carry. so why go through the trouble? what are the advantages? i think most people do it for no other reason than to prove that they can do it. and they are the ones that get hassled by police. cops do what they want. and thats not gonna change.

shhh, its ok watkins...just nod your head and they will go away until someone else brings it up...

 

[Scutter01]

actually i did read them. and there was a mention of that this is the reason one guy carries concealed. and it was brushed off. the only other thing i saw was cop bashing and talk of lawsuits. its very clear that most leo's dont agree with open carry. so why go through the trouble? what are the advantages? i think most people do it for no other reason than to prove that they can do it. and they are the ones that get hassled by police. cops do what they want. and thats not gonna change.

No, we got that you don't like OC, but I think we were trying to stick to the point instead of derailing the conversation into yet another of the dozens of discussions on the relative merits of CC vs OC already on INGO.

 

[octalman]

Don't play lawyer by quoting Indiana Code to the Chief or any other LEO. Get a real lawyer to file a complaint the correct way, otherwise you will not be taken seriously.

 

[Hayseed_40]

No, we got that you don't like OC, but I think we were trying to stick to the point instead of derailing the conversation into yet another of the dozens of discussions on the relative merits of CC vs OC already on INGO.

Like this has been discussed here. Next you will be saying there is this so called FAQ.

 

[Scutter01]

Like this has been discussed here. Next you will be saying there is this so called FAQ.

A what, now?

 

[b0r0b]

I open carry because it is the most comfortable form of carry for me. Period. Why do police open carry? Is it the same reason why they leave their cars running even if their in a 19 hour standoff? I have heard the car stays on because it is just another obstacle they want to avoid when responding to a call. Adjusting my shirt to pull out my weapon is an obstacle I don't want either.

But, why do police open carry? I was told I am not tactical and I am the first target..great? I accept that if it is the truth. But he's not a first target? HE is a deterrent because of his uniform? Negative.

and I didn't throw anyone under the bus because I didn't mention that officers name. But realistically you'd think he'd say "Hey guys I know this guy, no way hes doing anything wrong and he paid me $200 for that illegal tint on his car.." instead he treated me like he's never seen me in my life. It was excellent to see how people act in different environments. He was my ***** when he screwed up the tint and had to fix it at mercy and for no money, but when he's got the shield on I am his *****.

 

[Hayseed_40]

and I didn't throw anyone under the bus because I didn't mention that officers name. But realistically you'd think he'd say "Hey guys I know this guy, no way hes doing anything wrong and he paid me $200 for that illegal tint on his car.." instead he treated me like he's never seen me in my life. It was excellent to see how people act in different environments. He was my ***** when he screwed up the tint and had to fix it at mercy and for no money, but when he's got the shield on I am his *****.

No honor among thieves. What is this world coming to?? You will get no sympathy from me on this one Alice - you both got to be each other beotch. Not sure what this has to do with OC v CC, or XD v Glock, or cherry v rhubarb.

If he would have given you any special treatment, would you have condemned him for that?

 

[ralphb72]

Well, Reid sucks is all I can say. Reid has bought out most of the doctors offices in town, you can't hardly sneeze in a doctor's office in Richmond without paying Reid. And don't get me started about the new big beautiful hospital that was built right before they announced rate increases. If you are in it, you will be seen by a doctor that is working there, your normal doctor will not come visit you. We call it Bleed Hospital.

It does not really surprise me that someone freaked at the sight of a gun and called the police on you. I am very curious, did you think about what they would do when they saw your openly carried gun before you went in, or do you OC just about everywhere you go and you did not really think about it or expect them to react in any way? I have CC at Bleed Hospital, I do so expecting that I would be asked to leave if I OC there, and would be asked to leave if any of them knew I was CC even. Visiting my family there is more important to me then educating the staff. Half of them or more probably think it is illegal to carry in a hospital in the first place. People here have no idea that OC is OK. I do my part to educate people, but I don't have the time or energy to fight the battle of Reid although I respect your right to do so.

I have OC around Richmond and never been hassled. I have walked by police officers who never said a word, but whether they noticed or not is unknown. I have OC in Walmart, CVS, several restaurants (although I would avoid doing it at McDonalds for a while) DQ, just walking down the street with my family, and never been stopped so far. I do CC in many more places though.

I went to a class with RPD a while back. We went to their range and the instructor was talking about "concealed carry permits" and how OC was not allowed etc. One of the older gentlemen in the group corrected him and wanted to discuss it but the other instructor would have none of it. They definitely do not like citizens to OC and I believe they either really do not know that it is legal, or do know that is legal but would willfully lie to you to influence your actions.

 

[b0r0b]

Well, Reid sucks is all I can say. Reid has bought out most of the doctors offices in town, you can't hardly sneeze in a doctor's office in Richmond without paying Reid. And don't get me started about the new big beautiful hospital that was built right before they announced rate increases. If you are in it, you will be seen by a doctor that is working there, your normal doctor will not come visit you. We call it Bleed Hospital.

It does not really surprise me that someone freaked at the sight of a gun and called the police on you. I am very curious, did you think about what they would do when they saw your openly carried gun before you went in, or do you OC just about everywhere you go and you did not really think about it or expect them to react in any way? I have CC at Bleed Hospital, I do so expecting that I would be asked to leave if I OC there, and would be asked to leave if any of them knew I was CC even. Visiting my family there is more important to me then educating the staff. Half of them or more probably think it is illegal to carry in a hospital in the first place. People here have no idea that OC is OK. I do my part to educate people, but I don't have the time or energy to fight the battle of Reid although I respect your right to do so.

I have OC around Richmond and never been hassled. I have walked by police officers who never said a word, but whether they noticed or not is unknown. I have OC in Walmart, CVS, several restaurants (although I would avoid doing it at McDonalds for a while) DQ, just walking down the street with my family, and never been stopped so far. I do CC in many more places though.

I went to a class with RPD a while back. We went to their range and the instructor was talking about "concealed carry permits" and how OC was not allowed etc. One of the older gentlemen in the group corrected him and wanted to discuss it but the other instructor would have none of it. They definitely do not like citizens to OC and I believe they either really do not know that it is legal, or do know that is legal but would willfully lie to you to influence your actions.

Well, I will not be scared or harassed into CC'ing. I smoke at Texas Roadhouse because I can, and until they say I can't, I will do what makes me comfortable. I do not have to take your fears or dislikes into consideration.

I have OC'd everywhere in Richmond, AND to the same clinic 6 or 8 months back with not a word spouted. To the Vet, IN mcdonalds before someone was shot there..I was standing outside of the muffler shop the other day on the phone at the edge of NW 5th as a K-9 unit drove right by me and you can't tell me he didn't see it.

No one in Richmond has a problem with it, except for the Clinic and McDonald's is a little butthurt but it's not like their employees were victims. Until I see an IC that says "concealed", I will be displaying my weapon. If I am your first target, I will go down in history as the FIRST ever person displaying a weapon shot during a robbery. Call Guinness. That's really the last I'll hear on CC. I don't want CC as much as some of you don't want OC.

 

[b0r0b]

No honor among thieves. What is this world coming to?? You will get no sympathy from me on this one Alice - you both got to be each other beotch. Not sure what this has to do with OC v CC, or XD v Glock, or cherry v rhubarb.

If he would have given you any special treatment, would you have condemned him for that?

What? How can you consider special treatment? I was thinking more along the lines of benefit of the doubt? Special treatment when you're being illegally detained does not make sense.

 

[KLB]

I acted 80% differently than I would have had my kids not been there. My wife does not drive so they would have been stuck there and we have no family in Indiana. Had I been at the clinic by myself I would have begged to be arrested for a crime that I did not commit/made up crime.

After speaking with Guy, it looks like a case is sort out of the question since Reid is a private hospital and he said they could just say they were called and were handling the situation as it came to them. I did just get off the phone with the clinic's supervisor and he informed me that someone from his office made the call themselves apparently with no patient interaction. They also gave my ID to the officers "illegally" as I would not have produced any information since a crime did not occur and all they should have done was ask me to leave.

I am going to the department in a few minutes to file my paper complaint and ask to speak to a supervisor right now if I can. At the absolute very least I want their officers retrained on the law and I want the 911 caller arrested for making a false emergency call IF IN FACT the call states I was waving my gun around out of my holster. IF that is not the case, I want the one officer that told me that was the call meeting with the chief about fabricating a story in order to make the seizure legitimate.

Giving the information to the police sounds like a HIPAA violation, which is why they said illegally. Patient confidentiality is rule 1 in the medical world now.

 

[serpicostraight]

I find this the most interesting, that you admit to having your tint done illegally, and then throw the officer that did it under the bus.

Never trust a citizen

tint done illegally by a cop. i guess its ok for a cop to break the law huh? after all who can know all the laws theres so many of them. i guess ignorance of the law is only a valid excuse if you are the one who is expected to know the law.

 

[b0r0b]

tint done illegally by a cop. i guess its ok for a cop to break the law huh? after all who can know all the laws theres so many of them. i guess ignorance of the law is only a valid excuse if you are the one who is expected to know the law.

Lol..again, this ridiculous city ordnance came out of no where AFTER the tint on my car was installed. I have not been asked to remove it and I won't. Tint that is too dark on a car is a safety issue for police officers...no it isn't.

 

[ralphb72]

Well, I will not be scared or harassed into CC'ing....I do not have to take your fears or dislikes into consideration.

I have OC'd everywhere in Richmond, AND to the same clinic 6 or 8 months ...

... I don't want CC as much as some of you don't want OC.

You mistake me sir, I applaud your exercising of your rights and I never said I don't want OC. I OC myself, and you are the only other person besides myself that I have come across that has OC in Richmond.

My intention was not to harass you in to doing anything, nor was I trying to make you do anything, I was merely sharing my thoughts and experiences in the same town and my experience with RPD with you.

I was mainly trying to get your idea of what your expectations were at the Clinic. With the fact that you had OC'd there previously with no issues, that mainly answers my question. Also I wanted to make the point that I believe that some of the RPD are not above lying to you about the legality of OC in order to try to get their way. I wasn't saying that was right, just that it does not surprise me that they would do it.

Happy OCing!

 

[Bill B]

Ok, I didn't read everything but skimmed most of it.
My advice? Start looking for and retain a lawyer NOW.
You do not need to be charged with anything for the local PD to send a report to the ISP and your license could be suspended pending revocation hearing.
Make as much noise as you can to the PD brass (prob. a waste of time), send a letter to any and every non-leo board, council, whatever that has authority over the PD.
File a complaint with the ISP and USDOJ.
Keep talking to the press, even if it is just a letter to the editor

 

[Roadie]

Giving the information to the police sounds like a HIPAA violation, which is why they said illegally. Patient confidentiality is rule 1 in the medical world now.

That is an interesting point. So the question is, legally, can HIPAA be broken by giving info to the Police during an investigation, without a warrant?

So, I did some research.

When does the Privacy Rule allow covered entities to disclose protected health information to law enforcement officials?

This seems to indicate a written request would be required, at the least, for PHI to be released to a Police Officer..

IANAL, I didnt stay at Holiday Inn Express, etc

 

[Bill of Rights]

Obviously officers need to be able to temporarily detain someone in order to perform an investigation, even if its a quick one. And I'm fine with that.

But what if there was some sort of minor "penalty" for detaining someone who turns out to not be breaking the law?

An example:

Officers are dispatched to a MWG call. They arrive, detain the suspect, and find that he is a legal LTCH-holder. For the hassles they caused him, he gets a $10 restaurant gift card.

In the OP's case, after it was found that his LTCH was valid, and after it was found that OCing is legal, he could've been given a $10 restaurant gift card.

Obviously these gift cards would add up, and it might make the police Admin think twice about how quick they are to detain folks for silly things like OC.

There should just be SOME recourse, however minor, for honest and legal folks' interrupted day. Then these posted stories would at least end with ". . . then we headed over to Denny's for dinner!"

Just a thought. . . .

I'm with you on this, Evan, but I think that the $10 gift cards need to be paid for by the people who cause the problem, not by the taxpayers who end up footing the bill for everything else.

Police are NOT required to tell the truth. Thinking long and hard about that fact, I agree with it.

While I advocate getting a lawyer in this this situation, generally I will side with the police officers. This situation was just too wrong in too many ways. If 7 officers responded in the same way, then this entire department needs to be sat down for an 8 hour class on Indiana Handgun Law.

I believe officers have the right to ask for your LTCH. I believe they have the duty to check out a MWAG call. I believe they should treat MWAG calls as a possible threat but that being said they need to use their brains. If the OP was sitting in a chair holding his small child then they should have observed that before dragging him away, they should have seen that he was not a threat, they should have acted accordingly. JMO

True, they are permitted to lie to citizens, however, to detain him, are they not required to have RAS or PC to believe a crime occurred? If they had none of that, (and per Washington, once he showed his LTCH, they didn't), then the lie collapses on itself.

I acted 80% differently than I would have had my kids not been there. My wife does not drive so they would have been stuck there and we have no family in Indiana. Had I been at the clinic by myself I would have begged to be arrested for a crime that I did not commit/made up crime.

After speaking with Guy, it looks like a case is sort out of the question since Reid is a private hospital and he said they could just say they were called and were handling the situation as it came to them. I did just get off the phone with the clinic's supervisor and he informed me that someone from his office made the call themselves apparently with no patient interaction. They also gave my ID to the officers "illegally" as I would not have produced any information since a crime did not occur and all they should have done was ask me to leave.

I am going to the department in a few minutes to file my paper complaint and ask to speak to a supervisor right now if I can. At the absolute very least I want their officers retrained on the law and I want the 911 caller arrested for making a false emergency call IF IN FACT the call states I was waving my gun around out of my holster. IF that is not the case, I want the one officer that told me that was the call meeting with the chief about fabricating a story in order to make the seizure legitimate.

For my part, I think I would have gotten in my car, moved it to the public street, then retrieved my property from my trunk and put it back where it belonged. As long as it was in its holster, no claim could be made of you "brandishing" (they'd likely call it "criminal recklessness with a firearm", since there is no "brandishing" statute in IN), and the very idea that they could "make you go home, disarm yourself, and then come back for your family is ludicrous at best. You must obey their lawful orders, but that doesn't qualify, IMHO. (IANAL, etc.)

Giving the information to the police sounds like a HIPAA violation, which is why they said illegally. Patient confidentiality is rule 1 in the medical world now.

That's an enormous point. I truly hope for their sakes that they were not stupid enough to break that law... because that one's federal and carries some rather hefty fines at a minimum. OTOH, I hope for b0r0b's sake that they did, because anything after that becomes suspect.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Cherryspringer]

Changed?

OC is so risky for a civilian because it only takes one person who doesn't approve to say something and suddenly your LTCH is just a piece of paper and somehow you're a criminal for carrying and you deserve to be examined as closely as possible in hopes that you might have something out of order. I prefer to fly below the radar.