Dennys Not So Great

[actaeon277]

TF
I agree, big diff depending on private/public.
But, if its not posted, or on a company websitye, how is an OCer supposed to know.
It would be perfectly legal for them to say, "no Ford Escape owners"
But, if I show up with a Ford Escape, I will not be embarrassed that they ask me to leave.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

TF
I agree, big diff depending on private/public.
But, if its not posted, or on a company websitye, how is an OCer supposed to know.
It would be perfectly legal for them to say, "no Ford Escape owners"
But, if I show up with a Ford Escape, I will not be embarrassed that they ask me to leave.

You can't know, but realize that many people and many places believe OC is illegal and they do not have to ask you to leave.

Many LEO still believe it is illegal to OC and don't take kindly to people standing up for their rights however polite you may be about it. Sometimes they don't even ALLOW you to leave from private property until they have obtained everything they wanted from you.

See where I am going with this?

If it is private property it may very well be legal for you to have an OC event there, but if it were MY event, ESPECIALLY at a place where there was a prior altercation specific express permission can only be your ally.

 

[CathyInBlue]

"The only fact that saves the officer's stop of DeBerry, in my opinion, is the fact that it is unlawful in Illinois to carry a concealed weapon.   The tipster informed the police that DeBerry was armed, and it appears from the facts before us that the weapon was not in plain view.   I do not agree that this case would necessarily come out the same way if Illinois law, like the law of many states, authorized the carrying of concealed weapons."

That's from the 7th District Court, of which Indiana is a member. Since Indiana law DOES allow for concealed carry, as well as open carry, by DeBerry, same cannot be bootstrapped into Reasonable Articulable Suspicion for an investigative detention absent other grounds for RAS.

 

[actaeon277]

I see.
I still OC more and more. When I'm not, I'm CCing.
I've been CCing around 20 years.
I check the law.
I check the business, if possible.
In my mind, I go thru self defence, and legal situations.
I try to "Be Prepared"
That being said, I understand things will come up out of my control.
But, fortune favors the prepared.
Oh, and I don't go "looking" for trouble, so I probably won't go to Dennys.
But, I do OC/CC, have one of your T-shirts.
And I do it in the Gary/Merrillville/Schererville area.

I'll probably forget this thread in 30 days.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Yes.





ETA: I had a guy (n00b) send me a PM a few days ago asking if there was a way to subscribe to my posts like facebook...

You have no idea what that does for my ego

Oh, dear Lord, please do not let his head explode, unless I am there to witness it.

 

[actaeon277]

Oh, dear Lord, please do not let his head explode, unless I am there to witness it.

Well, he wants to watch TF's post, cause its sorta like watchin 2 trains come together.

 

[Jake46184]

Trying to eat at Denny's in Gary.Officer comes up and asks for my permit.I just say, OK but you really can't do that.he informs me he is an officer and sure can.I said I had no problem showing him my liscense and I did say he was violating my rights as I got it out.I hit record on my phone.he continued to lecture me.left and came back with 6 swat guys he was ith and told me management wanted me out.so I said OK.he continued to tell me I was wrong,threatening to arrest me.calling me Perry mason.he basically said they would find a way to arrest me if I did not cove it up.at this point I was pretty beat down.covered it and left.they followed me for several miles.

He just happened to have some SWAT guys loitering around to introduce? They followed you for several miles?

I once was hunting in the woods and was attacked by a polar bear and a regular bear on the same day. Really. I just said so on the Internet so it must be true.......

 

[aikidoka]

What does one do, if after giving them the LTCH they also ask for your driver's license? Am I required to give that to them? They are going to argue they need to verify you are who is on the LTCH. Does the law support their request?

 

[No Lot Lizards]

How was he violating your rights? Carrying a firearm in Indiana is a crime (generally speaking). A positive defense against the charge is the possession of a valid LTCH. As a police officer, he has the right to investigate a supposed crime in progress.

So its ok for a cop to pull over anybody on the road and check for a drivers license, to investigate a possible crime in progress?

 

[Bunnykid68]

What does one do, if after giving them the LTCH they also ask for your driver's license? Am I required to give that to them? They are going to argue they need to verify you are who is on the LTCH. Does the law support their request?

No, it does not. Ask T_Frost

 

[Bunnykid68]

So its ok for a cop to pull over anybody on the road and check for a drivers license, to investigate a possible crime in progress?

No, it is not. Scutter posted up appropriate Indiana Code that spells it out.

 

[actaeon277]

IANAL
Required to show LTCH. Yes.
Drivers license. Not for the carry. But, if they are accusing you of something else, tresspass, nuisance, etc. Yes.

 

[Ted]

IANAL
Required to show LTCH. Yes.
Drivers license. Not for the carry. But, if they are accusing you of something else, tresspass, nuisance, etc. Yes.

Because there is no photograph, and the relative ease that a person may counterfeit an Indiana LTCH.........They'll find something to ask for it.

IC 34-28-5-3
Detention
Sec. 3. Whenever a law enforcement officer believes in good faith that a person has committed an infraction or ordinance violation, the law enforcement officer may detain that person for a time sufficient to:
(1) inform the person of the allegation;
(2) obtain the person's:
(A) name, address, and date of birth; or
(B) driver's license, if in the person's possession; and
(3) allow the person to execute a notice to appear.
As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.

IC 34-28-5-3.5
Refusal to identify self
Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
(1) name, address, and date of birth; or
(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession;
to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.
As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.

 

[aikidoka]

So if I'm stopped and they ask for ID and after the prelimnary, am I being detained, for suspicion of what crime? It is for carrying and I just give them my LTCH, I can refuse to give them any other ID because I am not commiting a crime and as the student did, I can challenge them to articulate what suspicision do they have since the LTCH has cleared me of the gun crime?

Holy run on sentence batman!

 

[aikidoka]

Didnt see Ted's post before I replied. That makes things different :/

 

[Bunnykid68]

Didnt see Ted's post before I replied. That makes things different :/

No, it does not. The presence of the LTCH verifies that you are not in violation of the law. The LTCH proves you did commit an infraction, which means there is no need for further questioning.

 

[stephen87]

What does one do, if after giving them the LTCH they also ask for your driver's license? Am I required to give that to them? They are going to argue they need to verify you are who is on the LTCH. Does the law support their request?

IANALBIMO, once the LTCH comes back, they should walk away. If I remember correctly, the only time you must produce identification is if there is an opportunity for some type of citation to be issued. As I said though, IANAL and I have been known to be incorrect before, so please feel free to correct with appropriate cites if any exist.

 

[aikidoka]

No, it does not. The presence of the LTCH verifies that you are not in violation of the law. The LTCH proves you did commit an infraction, which means there is no need for further questioning.

I imagine a LEO would say they need to verify you are actually the person on the LTCH.

 

[Ted]

So if I'm stopped and they ask for ID and after the prelimnary, am I being detained, for suspicion of what crime? It is for carrying and I just give them my LTCH, I can refuse to give them any other ID because I am not commiting a crime and as the student did, I can challenge them to articulate what suspicision do they have since the LTCH has cleared me of the gun crime?

Holy run on sentence batman!

I wouldn't suggest being a **** like he was being. It might buy you more trouble that you're prepared to experience.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I imagine a LEO would say they need to verify you are actually the person on the LTCH.

Oh, they most assuredly would say that, does not make them correct. Where is Titanium Frost when you need him?