Cop Down -- would you intervene?

[Arm America]

Cop Down -- would you intervene?

Without Hesitation

---------------------------------------

Absolutely!
With no hesitation.

A police officer would do the same for any one of us.

 

[Archaic_Entity]

I would help if it were possible for me to do so.

But I seem to remember a couple years ago ago somebody posted a thread about "what would you do if..." and described a cop in a gunfight with a bad guy. After everybody said they'd help the police officer, by shooting or running over the the bad guy (I said I'd run him over since I was already in my car and the scenario put him more or less in front of me), ZING! It was a police impersonator driving a faked police car, and an off-duty cop driving his truck that the faker pulled over and decided to kill once he found out the guy was a cop. It ended with "all you guys just helped the bad guy kill a cop."

If I remember right.

Did you see that thread?

The best anyone can do is act with the information given on hand. Very similar to the 9/11 thread floating somewhere around here.

The chances that it is an impersonator being assaulted by an off-duty cop are nearly astronomical. As any logical, rational person would conclude, the guy with the badge is more likely in the right, but on the wrong end of the beat stick at the moment. The moral imperative is to act in a manner to assist a fellow human being wrongfully assaulted, by whatever means the situation warrants.

Would I shoot? Hell, I don't know--never had the situation occur, but I do know that whenever I go by a traffic stop or anything of the sort, I slow down and check to make sure nothing's going on crazy. A lot of my friends are/were police, and I couldn't imagine not helping them, therefore I couldn't imagine not helping any other officer in that predicament.

I don't fault anyone for a logical assessment, and deciding they have all these stipulations they have before they get there, but I honestly don't think they'll come to mind in the situation. It's one of those matters where decisions of action/inaction are simply to be made before the situation occurs, and simply acting upon the decision when it occurs.

I would act, but to what degree depends on the situation.

 

[jbombelli]

The best anyone can do is act with the information given on hand. Very similar to the 9/11 thread floating somewhere around here.

The chances that it is an impersonator being assaulted by an off-duty cop are nearly astronomical. As any logical, rational person would conclude, the guy with the badge is more likely in the right, but on the wrong end of the beat stick at the moment. The moral imperative is to act in a manner to assist a fellow human being wrongfully assaulted, by whatever means the situation warrants.

Would I shoot? Hell, I don't know--never had the situation occur, but I do know that whenever I go by a traffic stop or anything of the sort, I slow down and check to make sure nothing's going on crazy. A lot of my friends are/were police, and I couldn't imagine not helping them, therefore I couldn't imagine not helping any other officer in that predicament.

I don't fault anyone for a logical assessment, and deciding they have all these stipulations they have before they get there, but I honestly don't think they'll come to mind in the situation. It's one of those matters where decisions of action/inaction are simply to be made before the situation occurs, and simply acting upon the decision when it occurs.

I would act, but to what degree depends on the situation.

I agree. That thread was posted by a cop, too. I almost posted a counter scenario involving a bad cop, in uniform, who was hired by a drug cartel to kill a federal prosecutor or judge, and rolling up on the scene as it was happening.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

My first impulse on reading the OP was "Hell, yes!" But then I remembered a situation almost 30 years ago when I was working as a security supervisor for Wackenhut in Houston. I was enroute from inspecting one guard facility to another about 1230 at night and rolled past this bar. There looked to be about 10 guys beating up two Deputies in the parking lot. Without a mobile phone (they were rare and expensive in the early 80s) and with only six rounds for my revolver, I just kept on going.

I'd like to think that I'm much better prepared to render assistance, in equipment, experience and knowledge, today than I was 30 years ago . . .

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I would help if it were possible for me to do so.

But I seem to remember a couple years ago ago somebody posted a thread about "what would you do if..." and described a cop in a gunfight with a bad guy. After everybody said they'd help the police officer, by shooting or running over the the bad guy (I said I'd run him over since I was already in my car and the scenario put him more or less in front of me), ZING! It was a police impersonator driving a faked police car, and an off-duty cop driving his truck that the faker pulled over and decided to kill once he found out the guy was a cop. It ended with "all you guys just helped the bad guy kill a cop."

If I remember right.

Did you see that thread?

Yeah I remember it. We can all "what if" scenarios all day long.

I made no such statement. I believe what you are experiencing is referred to in psychological circles as "projection".

Like you are projecting your anti-cop attitude every chance you get.

 

[jbombelli]

Yeah I remember it. We can all "what if" scenarios all day long.

I know. And I still stand by my answer in that thread.

I'd help whoever I *thought* to be the cop. I don't think I could look myself in the mirror again if I knew somebody was murdered, and I had the chance to prevent that from happening, but for whatever reason I turned a blind eye.

That gotcha scenario ticked me off because it seemed specifically intended to tell people who would step up to help that it was none of their business and their help would only make things worse.

 

[IndyDave1776]

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Absolutely!
With no hesitation.

A police officer would do the same for any one of us.

In the one situation in which it was an issue for me, he didn't.

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

The point he was making is that People of Authority are always telling us to just be a good witness and not get involved, so which should we do? Get involved or just be a good witness.

I know what I would do.

I kinda thought that was one of the things that made us different than the "sheeple" everyone around here talks about. We assess a situation, determine the most likely scenario and the best course of action, and do the right thing; while sheeple just do what they've been told to.

"What time is it?"
"I dunno."
"You're under arrest for refusal to aid an officer without reasonable cause. Even if the jury ultimately acquits you or the prosecutor just cuts you loose, you still get to waste thousands and thousands of your own dollars and days and days of your life dealing with this bogus, BS charge just because you didn't play the compliant little prole and do what the super-citizen police officer told you."

I made no such statement. I believe what you are experiencing is referred to in psychological circles as "projection".

As a reserve officer, you're still a member of the gan-- uh, club. You intervene, and you have a hugely greater chance of A) being immediately recognized as a good guy and not fired upon, or B) flashing your reserve officer badge/ID documents and THEN being recognized and not fired upon. What chance would I have have as an OC'er of being recognized as a good guy when I intercede to keep a police officer, reserve or paid, from getting his ass kicked, as opposed to mistaken for another bad guy (who openly carries her sidearm in a holster, which is a very un-bad guy thing to do) and another target for either the officer on whose part I was attempting to intercede, or by his official back up when THEY arrive on the scene and attempt to parse the display themselves in a fraction of a second?

 

[CathyInBlue]

Like you are projecting your anti-cop attitude every chance you get.

I'm not anti-LEO. I'm pro-Constitution.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I kinda thought that was one of the things that made us different than the "sheeple" everyone around here talks about. We assess a situation,*determine the most likely scenario and the best course of action, and do the right thing; while sheeple just do what they've been told to.

Why should we impose our assistance on those who have preemptively declined it?

I'm not anti-LEO. I'm pro-Constitution.

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

I'm not anti-LEO. I'm pro-Constitution.

Dale isn't angry. He's just dissapointed in you.

Why should we impose our assistance on those who have preemptively declined it?

'Cause we're adult enough to step up and help our fellow man, even one who may have slighted us in the past, just because it's the right thing to do? 'Cause we're above petty, grade school style excuses where we sink to their level to make a point?

I'm just saying: That path leads to the Dark Side, Padawan.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Why should we impose our assistance on those who have preemptively declined it?

'Cause we're adult enough to step up and help our fellow man, even one who may have slighted us in the past, just because it's the right thing to do? 'Cause we're above petty, grade school style excuses where we sink to their level to make a point?

I will grant you that my previous statement was flippant in nature. Now back to my original concerns. You previous post sounds nice but it is necessarily predicated on the notion that the police are automatically on the right side. In my personal experience, I have about a 20% chance of this actually being the case. It has nothing to do with past slights but rather with making a decision in the present that requires certainty about what is right in order to act on it. If I don't know for certainty that I am acting on behalf of the party who is in fact right, I am not going to act. Sorry, possession of a badge doesn't rate an automatic conclusion here.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Dale isn't angry. He's just dissapointed in you.

Dale who? Frank-N-Stein? I see no reason for anyone to be disappointed in me. I'm merely a social mirror. I behave as those around me behave, provided it doesn't violate my ethics. Getting shot, drawn down on, or fed asphalt by someone to whose rescue I was running with my gun in my hand is not ethical, therefore I will not do them, but neither will I risk them from someone else.

'Cause we're adult enough to step up and help our fellow man, even one who may have slighted us in the past, just because it's the right thing to do? 'Cause we're above petty, grade school style excuses where we sink to their level to make a point?

I'm just saying: That path leads to the Dark Side, Padawan.

It's not about what they did in the past, except that the past is prologue and informs what we can expect from those same individuals in the future. Are there members of law enforcement whom I would refuse to aid just because of who they are and what they did to me? Yes. Are there other members of law enforcement who I would aid because I know them and their character and know I would be treated appropriately as a rescuer? Yes.

The Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
The Silver Corollary: Do unto others as they have done unto you, for per the Golden Rule, they have shown you that that is how they wish to be treated.

 

[maxmayhem]

HAHA

I had the same thought but more self control than you...i bet it was a 1911 too not a glock

Four rounds with a 45 and still going? He needs to carry something with a little more stopping power.

 

[maxmayhem]

I might help if my family is not with me..99.9 sure i would help if they were not

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

I will grant you that my previous statement was flippant in nature. Now back to my original concerns. You previous post sounds nice but it is necessarily predicated on the notion that the police are automatically on the right side. In my personal experience, I have about a 20% chance of this actually being the case. It has nothing to do with past slights but rather with making a decision in the present that requires certainty about what is right in order to act on it. If I don't know for certainty that I am acting on behalf of the party who is in fact right, I am not going to act. Sorry, possession of a badge doesn't rate an automatic conclusion here.

I'm definitely not saying that the police are always in the right, but you're honestly saying that if you were to come across a lone police officer on the street, getting savagely beaten by a larger assailant (as is the case in the example that predicated the thread) your immediate thought process is "Eh, there's an 80% chance the cop deserved it"? Do you honestly contend that's the logical response?

I'm not saying to abandon critical thinking and just think "Cop Good! GRRRAAAAAAH!" But this is also a place where that situational awareness people talk about comes in. It's not just keeping an eye out for suspicious activity in your vicinity. You can use it to assess the situation. Take a look at what's going on, and use your brain to determine what most likely led to this point.

You come upon the scene, take a look at the clues. Officer on the ground. An assailant is currently pummelling said officer. Vehicles are arranged as you would suspect in your average traffic stop. The officer is obviously on the wrong end of the fight, calling for help, as the assailant continues pummelling an already subdued officer.

Who's in the right here? Well, if you don't act soon it may not matter much; from the beating the officer is getting, the assailant could kill the officer with his bare hands. From the way the attack was described, it doesn't sound like an attack precipitated by fear, or defence. It sounds like an attack of anger, or rage; and your awareness should help you determine the difference.

At this point, you have a choice. You can not act, on the fear that you may be reading the situation wrong, and you might hurt someone who was only trying to defend themselves. But realize that by doing so, there is also a chance you are leaving an innocent person to die.

Or, you can act on the information available, and make the best choice you can under the circumstances. If I pull my sidearm and order him to stop, and he does; both parties walk away (though one will most likely be in cuffs), and he'll get his day in court to explain himself. If I am ignored when I pull my sidearm and order him to stop fighting, without him even turning to regard me, that is just further evidence supporting my previous conclusion that he is the assailant; acting from blinding anger. Then I can either stop what is obviously a violent, reckless assault; or once again turn away, and think "It's none of my business."

 

[Lex Concord]

Don't know if I would have shot the guy either. We do have the beauty of hindsight to look at this.

If the guy was using a weapon, knife or struggling with the officer's gun, I'd shoot. If he was unarmed and just trying to beat up the officer, I'd get him off him however possible

One thing that makes a difference in the way I look at this is the picture of the bystander/shooter...he is in a full rigid C-collar...it didn't seem from reading the story that he got it as part of this action...

If you have a neck injury that severe, your only options may be to watch or shoot.

Perry Stevens

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

The Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
The Silver Corollary: Do unto others as they have done unto you, for per the Golden Rule, they have shown you that that is how they wish to be treated.

Thank you for that. Seriously. Because now whenever someone makes the argument that an Atheist can't have a solid ethical standing without the Bible to guide them, I can look back and smile about this prime example of someone quoting the Bible in order to justify their stance that they would leave a fellow human being to die.

I see no reason for anyone to be disappointed in me. I'm merely a social mirror. I behave as those around me behave, provided it doesn't violate my ethics.

I'm listening to the words, but all I'm hearing is "Moooooooooooom! Stacy behaved this way, why can't I?" I'm not looking to invalidate your argument, I just don't think I've run across that one since grade school.

As an aside, I don't have any family or friends in law enforcement. I've actually been treated pretty crappily by some officers in the past. I'm just not one to hold a grudge, I guess?

We're all part of the cycle in this. Maybe a jerk LEO treats you like crap. Then the next LEO you see, you're instinctively standoffish, even on a subconscious level. The LEO picks up on that, even on a subconscious level, and gets standoffish himself. It's human nature, non-verbal communication. Break the cycle.

 

[TheRude1]

Let it be a cop or a homeless person ill intervene when need be.

 

[TheRude1]

You're not a LEO, are you?

I have had several carriers in my life