Cop Down -- would you intervene?

[CathyInBlue]

Or, you can act on the information available, and make the best choice you can under the circumstances. If I pull my sidearm and order him to stop, and he does; both parties walk away (though one will most likely be in cuffs), and he'll get his day in court to explain himself. If I am ignored when I pull my sidearm and order him to stop fighting, without him even turning to regard me, that is just further evidence supporting my previous conclusion that he is the assailant; acting from blinding anger. Then I can either stop what is obviously a violent, reckless assault; or once again turn away, and think "It's none of my business."

Or, you can act, pull your gun, order the suspect to stop, they flee, and when the other police arrive, responding to the downed officer's own radio calls, they find a person with a gun standing over an officer on the ground, and their adrenalin and "contempt of cop" juices are flowing, such that they can't even take the time to hear your words of explanation, let alone listen to, comprehend, and accept them as fact. You are shot dead in a hail of gunfire for volunteering to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Pretending is fun.

Thank you for that. Seriously. Because now whenever someone makes the argument that an Atheist can't have a solid ethical standing without the Bible to guide them, I can look back and smile about this prime example of someone quoting the Bible in order to justify their stance that they would leave a fellow human being to die.

The Golden Rule exists in various forms across the eons, in many religious texts and philosophic disciplines. Merely because I used the name for it that appears nowhere in the Bible, but is used by Bible believers to refer to it, in no way founds my arguments in Biblical edicts.

I agree with the idea that Pride is a sin as well, but I have non-Biblical foundations for that as well.

I'm listening to the words, but all I'm hearing is "Moooooooooooom! Stacy behaved this way, why can't I?" I'm not looking to invalidate your argument, I just don't think I've run across that one since grade school.

And if you're relying solely on my input, you still haven't. Mommy Government is not my parent. I'm an adult making my own decisions, and if "Stacy's" behaviour violated my own ethics, I wouldn't care what it was that she was getting away with, I would not seek to emulate her.

As an aside, I don't have any family or friends in law enforcement. I've actually been treated pretty crappily by some officers in the past. I'm just not one to hold a grudge, I guess?

I believe that that is one of the problems with this country. People have forgotten how to hold a good grudge. The tradition of shunning people who offend you has gone out of fashion, replaced by pablum about social justice.

We're all part of the cycle in this. Maybe a jerk LEO treats you like crap. Then the next LEO you see, you're instinctively standoffish, even on a subconscious level. The LEO picks up on that, even on a subconscious level, and gets standoffish himself. It's human nature, non-verbal communication. Break the cycle.

I'm standoffish by nature. It's just how I'm wired. I blame ruthless bullying I received in school. I'll let the person being paid money by the government to initiate force be the one to "break the cycle".

 

[Lex Concord]

I have had several carriers in my life

Was any of them this big?

 

[MACHINEGUN]

I'd get an LEO's back in a heartbeat, all they have to do is ask for assistance if they can and if not.. I'd just help out anyways.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'm definitely not saying that the police are always in the right, but you're honestly saying that if you were to come across a lone police officer on the street, getting savagely beaten by a larger assailant (as is the case in the example that predicated the thread) your immediate thought process is "Eh, there's an 80% chance the cop deserved it"? Do you honestly contend that's the logical response?

I'm not saying to abandon critical thinking and just think "Cop Good! GRRRAAAAAAH!" But this is also a place where that situational awareness people talk about comes in. It's not just keeping an eye out for suspicious activity in your vicinity. You can use it to assess the situation. Take a look at what's going on, and use your brain to determine what most likely led to this point.

You come upon the scene, take a look at the clues. Officer on the ground. An assailant is currently pummelling said officer. Vehicles are arranged as you would suspect in your average traffic stop. The officer is obviously on the wrong end of the fight, calling for help, as the assailant continues pummelling an already subdued officer.

Who's in the right here? Well, if you don't act soon it may not matter much; from the beating the officer is getting, the assailant could kill the officer with his bare hands. From the way the attack was described, it doesn't sound like an attack precipitated by fear, or defence. It sounds like an attack of anger, or rage; and your awareness should help you determine the difference.

At this point, you have a choice. You can not act, on the fear that you may be reading the situation wrong, and you might hurt someone who was only trying to defend themselves. But realize that by doing so, there is also a chance you are leaving an innocent person to die.

Or, you can act on the information available, and make the best choice you can under the circumstances. If I pull my sidearm and order him to stop, and he does; both parties walk away (though one will most likely be in cuffs), and he'll get his day in court to explain himself. If I am ignored when I pull my sidearm and order him to stop fighting, without him even turning to regard me, that is just further evidence supporting my previous conclusion that he is the assailant; acting from blinding anger. Then I can either stop what is obviously a violent, reckless assault; or once again turn away, and think "It's none of my business."

Within these parameters I can think of circumstances in which summary execution of the assailant would be in order and also circumstances under which the only involvement I would consider would be buying him a drink after he finished, and could see the truth falling anywhere in between those two extremes. Not enough information unless I am going to default to the notion that the cop is automatically right.

 

[rhslover]

I would also help, with appropriate force.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I'll let the person being paid money by the government to initiate force be the one to "break the cycle".

That will probably never happen because they'll be too busy fighting for their life while you're standing there waiting for your apology.

 

[Denny347]

That will probably never happen because they'll be too busy fighting for their life while you're standing there waiting for your apology.

Don't bother brother.

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

Within these parameters I can think of circumstances in which summary execution of the assailant would be in order and also circumstances under which the only involvement I would consider would be buying him a drink after he finished, and could see the truth falling anywhere in between those two extremes. Not enough information unless I am going to default to the notion that the cop is automatically right.

If you aren't confident you have the critical thinking skills to tell the difference between "assailant" and "victim" when you come across it in the street, you should probably work on developing those skills before carrying a firearm. Until you're confident you'll be able to use it properly in a bad situation, it might be best if you just leave the gun at home and keep your cell phone handy so you can "be a good witness."

I'm standoffish by nature. It's just how I'm wired. I blame ruthless bullying I received in school. I'll let the person being paid money by the government to initiate force be the one to "break the cycle".

I wasn't exactly star quarterback of team popularity when I was in school, either. But you get over it. You get to the real world and move on.

 

[Bunnykid68]

If you aren't confident you have the critical thinking skills to tell the difference between "assailant" and "victim" when you come across it in the street, you should probably work on developing those skills before carrying a firearm. Until you're confident you'll be able to use it properly in a bad situation, it might be best if you just leave the gun at home and keep your cell phone handy so you can "be a good witness."

I wasn't exactly star quarterback of team popularity when I was in school, either. But you get over it. You get to the real world and move on.

Just because someone is getting their ass handed to them dos not mean they are the victim.

 

[CathyInBlue]

I wasn't exactly star quarterback of team popularity when I was in school, either. But you get over it. You get to the real world and move on.

OH! You weren't exactly the star quarterback. It musta SO sucked to be you! Did you have bullies lying in wait for you at your bus to kick your ass on a regular basis? Did you get your ass kicked ON the bus on a regular basis? When you complained to the administration that you were too scared to ride that bus anymore, they just changed you to another bus, only to get beaten up on a regular basis THERE? Were you chased down the hallway by a boy 2' taller than you and cornered just so he could punch you in the stomach and leave you crying and cowering in the corner?

Tell me more about how your high school life sucked because you weren't popular. I was popular! It was popular to kick my ass!

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

Just because someone is getting their ass handed to them dos not mean they are the victim.

True. But once your adversary is down, once you've won and you keep beating them, it's no longer self-defense. You've become the aggressor. You've taken it to far; crossed the line. And you should be stopped. I would prefer not to hurt anyone to do it, but...

That idea notwithstanding, the situation as put forth in the article seemed pretty clear cut.

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

OH! You weren't exactly the star quarterback. It musta SO sucked to be you! Did you have bullies lying in wait for you at your bus to kick your ass on a regular basis? Did you get your ass kicked ON the bus on a regular basis? When you complained to the administration that you were too scared to ride that bus anymore, they just changed you to another bus, only to get beaten up on a regular basis THERE? Were you chased down the hallway by a boy 2' taller than you and cornered just so he could punch you in the stomach and leave you crying and cowering in the corner?

Tell me more about how your high school life sucked because you weren't popular. I was popular! It was popular to kick my ass!

Not on the bus, no. I eventually stopped riding the bus and walked int order to stop that. Had to get up a couple hours earlier, it was a long walk. They didn't lie in wait at my bus, but they did lie in wait in the boys locker room after gym. Or waited until the teacher left, flipped off the light in the classroom and jumped me. I once got locked in an orchestra cubical, still not sure how long I was stuck in that tiny thing. Hours. Two foot by four foot space.

The administration didn't do anything to stop it, because I never told them about it. I got sick enough of it that I cowboyed up and took care of it myself. Then I got over it.

You don't have the monopoly on childhood trauma. Everyone has at least some. Don't take it out on the people who handled theirs better.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Where am I taking it out on other people? You mean because you claim that I absolutely, positively will not help a down cop? Yeah. Even if true, refusing to act is SO inflicting my psychological scars on other people.

It's a good thing you're a cop, because you'd make a lousy psychiatrist.

I deal with my personal security issues by not relying on other people (such as administration) who can let me down, or even better (like cops) turn on me and become the bullies themselves. If that's inflicting my childhood trauma on others to you, I think we're just gonna hafta agree to disagree, because I don't see a way past that impasse.

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

It's a good thing you're a cop, because you'd make a lousy psychiatrist.

I'm not a cop. Never been a cop. Don't have any friends or family who are cops. Like I said, just not one to hold a grudge. You said that people not being able to hold a grudge was part of what's wrong with the world today. I'm sorry that you feel that forgiveness or turning the other cheek are no longer virtues, and we should just let go of them. I'm sure that sticking to vengeance is a perfectly healthy way of dealing with those feelings.

Everyone thinks every psychiatrist is a hack until they're ready to accept their help.
But no, I'm not a psychiatrist, either. Don't know any, never been to one.

As much as you claim it's just street smarts or whatever, it's anger, and vengeance. Sure it is. "The world hurt me, why should I owe it anything?"

You had a hard time in school. A lot of people did. Those kids make you live in fear, and fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Not your suffering, other people's, because you wouldn't be willing to help if you came across them on the street.

Just because people let you down or turned on you in the past, doesn't mean you have to let those betrayals colour your life now. You move on, you learn and you grow. You help other people, not because they've helped you in the past or because you know it will work out well for you in the end; but because it's what's right.

In the words of my Avatar-sake: "Butt Kicking, for Goodness!"

 

[CathyInBlue]

Just because people let you down or turned on you in the past, doesn't mean you have to let those betrayals colour your life now.

You wrote that sentence as if my experiences from long ago are completely different from my experiences recently. So sad to see one so short sighted.

Perhaps, I'll learn a new, grudgeless, mode of thinking after the world stops targetting me with its own petty vendettas and campaigns of harassment. It's largely luck, but the last person to target me is now in prison and their base of operations is now a vacant lot, soon enough to be my yard. There are others still targetting me. They are armed with guns and badges and ignorance of the law, yet with the power of the state. I'll deal with them in their own ways.

And as a scientist, I have no choice but to believe that the past is prologue, that the way things happened then is the way they will in all probability they will happen now. Psychology is just applied Biology, which is just applied Chemistry, which is just applied Physics. I'm not quite a pre-determinist, at least on the large scale, but on the human scale, largely so. Believing that, because people let me down and turned on me in the past, they will let me down and turn on me in the future is entirely warranted.

Maybe my attitude will change when other people, especially other people of authority, stop letting me down and turning on me. As I said before, I leave it up to those paid by the state to initiate coercive force to "stop the cycle".

 

[Denny347]

You wrote that sentence as if my experiences from long ago are completely different from my experiences recently. So sad to see one so short sighted.

Perhaps, I'll learn a new, grudgeless, mode of thinking after the world stops targetting me with its own petty vendettas and campaigns of harassment. It's largely luck, but the last person to target me is now in prison and their base of operations is now a vacant lot, soon enough to be my yard. There are others still targetting me. They are armed with guns and badges and ignorance of the law, yet with the power of the state. I'll deal with them in their own ways.

And as a scientist, I have no choice but to believe that the past is prologue, that the way things happened then is the way they will in all probability they will happen now. Psychology is just applied Biology, which is just applied Chemistry, which is just applied Physics. I'm not quite a pre-determinist, at least on the large scale, but on the small scale, largely so. Believing that, because people let me down and turned on me in the past, they will let me down and turn on me in the future is entirely warranted.

Maybe my attitude will change when other people, especially other people of authority, stop letting me down and turning on me. As I said before, I leave it up to those paid by the state to initiate coercive force to "stop the cycle".

I take it back...your NOT an angry person. You are a SAD person. So sad.

 

[CathyInBlue]

I take it back...your NOT an angry person. You are a SAD person. So sad.

SSRIs taste like PEZ

You know what's really sad, though? Police departments that can't be arsed to train their officers properly.

You know what's sadder than that? Police officers who attempt to enforce their personal opinions as law.

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

I take it back...your NOT an angry person. You are a SAD person. So sad.

I'm been as guilty of it as anyone, but we shouldn't be attacking. Attacks on her, from her own description, seem to be what predicated this stance.

You wrote that sentence as if my experiences from long ago are completely different from my experiences recently. So sad to see one so short sighted.

Perhaps, I'll learn a new, grudgeless, mode of thinking after the world stops targetting me with its own petty vendettas and campaigns of harassment. It's largely luck, but the last person to target me is now in prison and their base of operations is now a vacant lot, soon enough to be my yard. There are others still targetting me. They are armed with guns and badges and ignorance of the law, yet with the power of the state. I'll deal with them in their own ways.

And as a scientist, I have no choice but to believe that the past is prologue, that the way things happened then is the way they will in all probability they will happen now. Psychology is just applied Biology, which is just applied Chemistry, which is just applied Physics. I'm not quite a pre-determinist, at least on the large scale, but on the human scale, largely so. Believing that, because people let me down and turned on me in the past, they will let me down and turn on me in the future is entirely warranted.

Maybe my attitude will change when other people, especially other people of authority, stop letting me down and turning on me. As I said before, I leave it up to those paid by the state to initiate coercive force to "stop the cycle".

You say the world targets you with vendettas and harassment, but here's the thing - that's life. Some people have it easier than others. Most often, these people seem to be the ones who least deserve the ease of living that has fallen into their laps. But I've been where you are. I'm not a religious person now, but there was a time I thought that the only verifiable evidence of the existence of a "higher power" was the fact that more "bad luck" BS happened to me specifically than should be possible with a random system. The only explanation for the crap that went on in my life was that someone in a position of authority, either natural or preternatural, just got their rocks off by making me suffer. Statistically, one would think I could only roll so many ones before a natural 20 would pop up somewhere. And I'm still dealing with it. My life has been rough, it's always been rough.

It is for a lot of us. You're not alone in it. So you have a choice to make.

You can let life turn you bitter. You can hold on to every slight, every injustice, every unfair advantage that another person holds over you; and rage against the unfairness of it all. You can treat every person you meet as suspect; and assume that if they haven't proven otherwise, they're part of the huge conspiracy that is the world vs you.

Or, you can live your life. You can roll with the punches, and work to make this crap hole of a world better. Not just for you, but for the people around you.

You can let the unfair world beat you down; let it make you like it. Or you can rise above it, for everyone's sake.

My life is never going to be peaches and sunlight, all happiness and care-free living. But maybe I can ease someone else's way, even just a little. And that gives me reason enough to get up every day and deal with it.

 

[Denny347]

SSRIs taste like PEZ

You know what's really sad, though? Police departments that can't be arsed to train their officers properly.

You know what's sadder than that? Police officers who attempt to enforce their personal opinions as law.

Sad...yes...sadder...um no. Sorry your life sucks.

 

[CathyInBlue]

I'm sorry your brothers in blue are making Hoosiers' lives sadder through poor training.