Cop Down -- would you intervene?

[CathyInBlue]

In all seriousness, I would consider rendering aid to an on-duty officer if A) their status as a law enforcement officer was manifest, B) they couched their request in the language and tone of voice as a request and not a militaristic order, and C) in the language of the duty to retreat laws, I could act "in complete safety". If any of those conditions fails to hold, I'll not even consider aiding an officer. If they all hold, I'll still consider my own needs and wants before the officer's.

 

[mcafeesd]

Yep. I would help. I carry now because I cannot stand by and watch others be harmed. I understand the legal arguments for and against. But my father is a retired police officer. What if he had needed help and someone had refused. I could not do that to someone else's children. I may be hurt, arrested or killed. I still could not stand there and just watch.

 

[Hammerhead]

Close but not quite there. Generally speaking, and I am not a lawyer, the law gives us the right to self defense for others only as it would be proper for ourselves.

If we replace the third party that we are defending with ourselves, and it would not be legal to claim self defense for ourselves, it is not then legal to claim self defense for the third party that we defended.

For example, if Sam threatens Fred with a knife, and Fred then hits Sam with a club, I cannot pull out my gun and shoot Fred, claiming self defense for Sam's sake.

This is because if I threaten Fred with a knife, and he then hits me with a club, I cannot pull out my gun and shoot Fred, claiming self defense for myself.

This applies whether or not I know the circumstances surrounding the altercation between Sam and Fred. This is one of the major reasons why it is dangerous to walk into the middle of a situation and take lethal action against one party.

Given the tone and discussion in this thread, I was being generalized in my statement and putting forth the unspoken assumption that the situation was one that would fall within the parameters of the self defense statutes, i.e. that the officer down or citizen down is truly in need of self defense assistance.

Again, this is situation dependent. If I knew who the original assailant was, it's easier to jump in and beat the crap out of them if they still have the upper hand. If I happen upon a fight where one person has the upper hand and I don't know who the original instigator is, then holding both at gun point until LEOs arrive is prudent.

In the case of a LEO down, it generally is clear that the assailant with the upper hand is probably the bad guy.

There was a mention above to a previous thread about officer assistance that turns out it was an off duty plainclothes LEO taking on a LEO impersonator. In this situation, I don't believe the plainclothes officer will revert to his baser instincts and be attempting to permanently injure, maim, or kill the impersonator. He will (hopefully) revert to his training and subdue with only justified force until he can restrain the perp.

In any situation, assessment is critical. You can't take back the bullets, but you should be prepared to send them.

 

[Denny347]

"What time is it?"
"I dunno."
"You're under arrest for refusal to aid an officer without reasonable cause. Even if the jury ultimately acquits you or the prosecutor just cuts you loose, you still get to waste thousands and thousands of your own dollars and days and days of your life dealing with this bogus, BS charge just because you didn't play the compliant little prole and do what the super-citizen police officer told you."

You're an angry person

 

[Denny347]

In all seriousness, I would consider rendering aid to an on-duty officer if A) their status as a law enforcement officer was manifest, B) they couched their request in the language and tone of voice as a request and not a militaristic order, and C) in the language of the duty to retreat laws, I could act "in complete safety". If any of those conditions fails to hold, I'll not even consider aiding an officer. If they all hold, I'll still consider my own needs and wants before the officer's.

Don't bother, sit and watch. If you see the officer down, please call 911 at least for us.

 

[Benny]

To be charged with Refusal to Aid an Officer, you have to be ordered by the officer to assist him/her.

IC 35-44.1-3-3 Refusal to aid an officer
Sec. 3. A person who, when ordered by a law enforcement officer to assist the officer in the execution of the officer's duties, knowingly or intentionally, and without a reasonable cause, refuses to assist commits refusal to aid an officer, a Class B misdemeanor. As added by P.L.126-2012, SEC.54.

So if I see an officer getting beaten, I just need to hide so he/she doesn't see me?

 

[CathyInBlue]

You're an angry person

I'm a realistic person and I see the opportunities for the authorities to abuse this law to no end. Indeed, it was written to be abused, and indeed, we have already seen where it is abused against a couple of OCers who were just picking up trash along a roadside.

Don't bother, sit and watch. If you see the officer down, please call 911 at least for us.

If I saw a single officer down versus a single attacker and that single attacker were about to deliver a coup d'grace, I would react the same way I would react to any isolated pair of combatants where one was about to kill another who was at their mercy, I would pull my sidearm and fire center of mass until the aggressor stopped aggressing. Note that that did not qualify that the police officer could not be the aggressor, hence you did not see a qualifier that I would not fire on a police officer if they were about to murder a prone victim.

Of course, the track record of how the police treat those who use firearms to defend them are such that I would not hang around the scene after that. I would proceed directly to my lawyer's office to craft a report for the police so they know to whom to attribute the slugs pulled out of the aggressor, thus bud-nipping a possible charge of leaving the scene.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

"What time is it?"
"I dunno."
"You're under arrest for refusal to aid an officer without reasonable cause. Even if the jury ultimately acquits you or the prosecutor just cuts you loose, you still get to waste thousands and thousands of your own dollars and days and days of your life dealing with this bogus, BS charge just because you didn't play the compliant little prole and do what the super-citizen police officer told you."

I can't even begin to count how many people I have arrested for refusing to assist me after I ordered them to. Oh thats right, none.

In all seriousness, I would consider rendering aid to an on-duty officer if A) their status as a law enforcement officer was manifest, B) they couched their request in the language and tone of voice as a request and not a militaristic order, and C) in the language of the duty to retreat laws, I could act "in complete safety". If any of those conditions fails to hold, I'll not even consider aiding an officer. If they all hold, I'll still consider my own needs and wants before the officer's.

So basically what you are saying is you won't help.

So if I see an officer getting beaten, I just need to hide so he/she doesn't see me?

You wouldn't be the only one. Edited to add that those hiding would more than likely have a camera recording the incident so they can put it on youtube later.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

I like to think that I would help....

The article made it seem like the officer may have fired into the abdomen before the civilian opened fire, so I am not going to arm chair quarterback his reaction - a cop was down with a man on top of him, shots were fired, and a handgun was in the middle of the scuffle.

Good for him, and good for the officer making it home.

 

[Mark 1911]

In all seriousness, I would consider rendering aid to an on-duty officer if A) their status as a law enforcement officer was manifest, B) they couched their request in the language and tone of voice as a request and not a militaristic order, and C) in the language of the duty to retreat laws, I could act "in complete safety". If any of those conditions fails to hold, I'll not even consider aiding an officer. If they all hold, I'll still consider my own needs and wants before the officer's.

Luckily for you most LEOs would not put so many criteria in the way of helping you if you were ever in the position of needing their help yourself. Of course, that could never happen to anyone who carries, right? If an armed LEO could end up in a position of needing a helping hand, then maybe you or I could be as well. Just a thought.

 

[churchmouse]

Deputies in my area rely on all the help they can get from us Locals. I find it hard to imagine areas like where you are, I know they exist...

Unfortunately one of those areas is around me. Some of the locals really hate the fun police.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Luckily for you most LEOs would not put so many criteria in the way of helping you if you were ever in the position of needing their help yourself.

Pretty sure they put even more criteria on their aid of myself. Those criteria are called their union negotiated wage and benefits packages.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Pretty sure they put even more criteria on their aid of myself. Those criteria are called their union negotiated wage and benefits packages.

I don't do this job only for the pay and benefits. I also do it to help people like you that no matter how hard I bust my ass to help them, they still spit in my face and make stupid generalizations about how much of a piece of **** I am and only do things for my benefit.

 

[avengedXT]

Well, my answer is also a question:

How would you (I) live with yourself (myself) watching an officer who risks his job every day anyway, dealing with somebody daring enough to overpower him when he's obviously not within legal right?

point being: who knows how far the offender would have gone. would you rather watch & be partial cause to why a LEO dies, or the sole reason he survives?

i'd rather another officer make it home to the family he could have waiting for him. the whole situation could have gone much differently, and the bystander shooting could have faced charges.

 

[jeremy]

I don't do this job only for the pay and benefits.

I thought you done it for the Doughnuts and Coffee...

Maybe I have you confused with VUPD or Denny?!

 

[Benny]

You wouldn't be the only one. Edited to add that those hiding would more than likely have a camera recording the incident so they can put it on youtube later.

Just so you know, I've made light of this thread with a couple of jokes because I hear so often from LEO that it's best to be a good witness.

If the time arose and I saw an LEO/non-LEO getting the **** kicked out of him/her, I'm going to do anything in my power to help that person out.

If I saw an officer just struggling with someone, I'd probably just call 911, since I could possibly run into a bullet if the officer is able to unholster and start firing on the assailant (No offense, but just because someone has a badge doesn't automatically give them perfect aim.)

The absolute LAST thing on my mind would be to pull out a camera and start filming. I'm not sure if the thought would even cross my mind.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Just so you know, I've made light of this thread with a couple of jokes because I hear so often from LEO that it's best to be a good witness.

If the time arose and I saw an LEO/non-LEO getting the **** kicked out of him/her, I'm going to do anything in my power to help that person out.

If I saw an officer just struggling with someone, I'd probably just call 911, since I could possibly run into a bullet if the officer is able to unholster and start firing on the assailant (No offense, but just because someone has a badge doesn't automatically give them perfect aim.)

The absolute LAST thing on my mind would be to pull out a camera and start filming. I'm not sure if the thought would even cross my mind.

I know. My post was directed at others.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I thought you done it for the Doughnuts and Coffee...

Maybe I have you confused with VUPD or Denny?!

The donuts and coffee are a plus, but again not the only reason I do it.

 

[Bunnykid68]

The donuts and coffee are a plus, but again not the only reason I do it.

He was thinking of VUPD, in fact VUPD just posted about donuts in another thread

 

[sloughfoot]

Pretty sure they put even more criteria on their aid of myself. Those criteria are called their union negotiated wage and benefits packages.

And what of the thousands of Reserve Officers who are totally unpaid and who put there lives on the line right alongside the paid Officers?

I challenge you to determine which is paid and which is unpaid. I don't think you can.

The ignorance and parsing displayed on this forum is astounding and disturbing.

Most of the time I was on the street, I was working for a paid Officer who needed the time off. I could have taken a bullet that he/she might have taken. I certainly saw the same things he/she saw and certainly dealt with the same people.

I will ALWAYS intervene no matter what, when an Officer or a citizen is under attack and in danger. Stuff can be sorted out later.