Constitutional Carry bill filed in Indiana

[trophyhunter]

I missed this before.

Trophyhunter, if I was paying that $40 to actually advance liberty, I'd not have said a word. I'd pay it happily. However, what I misunderstood at the time was that we would lose recognition in other states unless we ponied up more money to the state coffers, to be used who the hell knows how.

A few years ago, a guy (and his wife, I think, not sure) made an appeal to the nation. Money poured in from all over to help his conjoined-twin babies get an operation to separate them from each other. They got the operation, but somewhere along the way, he got found out for using that money not to pay medical bills but to fund his habit... seemed he liked blow more than he liked his kids. Recently, a couple in Ohio (from Alabama, as I recall, but this happened in OH) ODd on heroin in their baby's hospital room bathroom. The birth giver died and the sperm donor is in jail, on charges. There was a GoFundMe to help with their expenses too, but somehow, I don't imagine most of the people who gave expected to be buying smack. In both cases, people were happy to pay to help, but not to pay money someone else could waste.

Too often, the power of the State is brought to bear upon those who have done nothing to deserve to have their lives ruined. If I recall, part of the LTCH money we paid goes to the training budget of the local LEA where you apply. If your $40 is going to help pay for the SWAT raid that comes in your door on a wrong-address warrant, and God forbid, you kill an honest cop who just got bad info, everyone loses. If they create a new database, rather than just use the one already in place, that's wasteful. Much better, IMHO, to put that $40 into helping turn a 2A-ambivalent legislator into a soidly-pro-2A legislator. Take them to dinner or better yet, the range, and let them see what it is they're legislating to affect. Want to pass down a legacy for those coming along after us? Let's fight to make Indiana the most gun-friendly state in the Union. Constitutional Carry will help that. Wide reciprocity (we already are recognized in well over half the country!) will help that. Just paying money because someone in a uniform has his hand out, asking you to pay for something you already have will not help advance liberty.



Blessings,
Bill

I know, and I agree with everyone's position that has already paid their dues and I can't ever like the idea of paying more money regardless of the amount to exercise my 2nd amendment rights especially if a penny of it is being used to pad some JBT's gear fund be it in state or out but the onus is on us to accomplish what the last generations didn't.

Bottom line, my whole life I've had to pay for that right and I don't want future generations to have that burden and I'm smart enough to understand how government works and what the ISP has to have in the form of a budget allowance to make a change in the existing system.

If this is going to work, there HAS to be a funding allowance in the ISP's budget to make the changes and simple as it sounds utilizing the existing database, bureaucracy always comes with a ridiculous price tag to accomplish the simplest of tasks the private sector can make happen in a fraction of the time and cost.

As Kirk eluded to how can one willfully take a pass on trading a Queen for a King under these circumstances? Repealing the LTCH is far too important and I want everyone's grandkids to be free to practice their rights unencumbered and if it takes a few more bucks to make it happen and be done with it so be it your never going to win liberty back by simply lending politicians a vote at the polls there's always a price to be paid.

I'm willing to do my part right here and now by any means necessary for the benefit of everyone so we can enjoy some liberties that have been denied to us and unjustly taxed because the people who came before us were to weak and divided and allowed the LTCH to happen in the first place.

I won't live to see it happen, but imagine the trend in years to come as state residents come together and get constitutional carry approved in more and more states as time passes.

It took the bastards at state and federal levels the better part of a hundred years to shove all this regulation on law abiding Americans, let's get our heads back in the game and realize the value in taking rights back at state level and hopefully effect more positive change nationwide.

 

[chipbennett]

As Kirk eluded to how can one willfully take a pass on trading a Queen for a King under these circumstances? Repealing the LTCH is far too important and I want everyone's grandkids to be free to practice their rights unencumbered and if it takes a few more bucks to make it happen and be done with it so be it your never going to win liberty back by simply lending politicians a vote at the polls there's always a price to be paid.

Because the actual, net change on my own ability to exercise my rights would be negative - as would be the impact on anyone who travels outside of Indiana.

Until every state becomes constitutional carry, reciprocity is a necessity - and reciprocity depends on the issuance of licenses.

 

[Kurr]

Bah, if ya need a license, it ain't a damn Right your talking about, just a regulated privilege. Your Right has already been taken.

 

[chipbennett]

Bah, if ya need a license, it ain't a damn Right your talking about, just a regulated privilege. Your Right has already been taken.

I agree 100%.

Now, what's the best way to fix it?

 

[Kurr]

You restore the Right and do away with the license.

 

[trophyhunter]

Because the actual, net change on my own ability to exercise my rights would be negative - as would be the impact on anyone who travels outside of Indiana.

Until every state becomes constitutional carry, reciprocity is a necessity - and reciprocity depends on the issuance of licenses.

No.

There will be no net change in your ability to hold credentials in order for you to have the regulated privilege of continuing to exercise your rights outside the state if this passes.

You simply have to be willing to recognise the extraordinary value abolishing the LTCH holds for all residents of Indiana and be willing to pay whatever price is required for reciprocity credentials for out of state needs as the statute defines however they manage to get it passed.

 

[historian]

This opinions of Kirk Freeman in post #71 are the opinions of Kirk Freeman and not representative of any person, persons or organizations.

Allegedly.

 

[chipbennett]

You restore the Right and do away with the license.

Yes. How, exactly, do you do that?

I agree with you in principle, and it sounds good in principle. But how do you actually effect that change, without adversely impacting the current status of the exercise of the right?

No.

There will be no net change in your ability to hold credentials in order for you to have the regulated privilege of continuing to exercise your rights outside the state if this passes.

We're not talking about the current bill that has been proposed, and which I fully support. Rather, we're talking about the theoretical situation in which all provisions for an Indiana license (LTCH, "reciprocity" license, etc.) are removed from the statutes, such that Indiana offers no license whatsoever.

You simply have to be willing to recognise the extraordinary value abolishing the LTCH holds for all residents of Indiana and be willing to pay whatever price is required for reciprocity credentials for out of state needs as the statute defines however they manage to get it passed.

I am willing to recognize the value. I do recognize the value.

But I do not agree with a significant lessening of my own ability to exercise my rights. Are all those people who don't pay $125 for a lifetime LTCH going to subsidize my increased costs to get non-resident permits in however many states as would be required to ensure no net change to my ability to exercise my rights? (And in fact, I'm not even sure it would be possible to maintain status quo, regardless of how many non-resident permits I may acquire.)

Here's the thing: the current bill, as proposed, would mean that every resident of Indiana could carry in Indiana, with no burden whatsoever. If someone does not wish to avail himself of the reciprocity license, it costs him nothing. But completely abolishing any form of reciprocity license for Indiana residents would immediately incur a monumental financial (and time/effort) burden for every Indiana resident who wishes to carry outside of the state.

So, yes: there is a monumental net loss of rights if Indiana completely abolishes licenses, even voluntary licenses that exist only for the purpose of reciprocity.

 

[Kurr]

Doesn't the current bill contain language to establish a reciprocity license for other backward States?

 

[chipbennett]

Doesn't the current bill contain language to establish a reciprocity license for other backward States?

Yes, it does.

 

[Viper1973]

Doesn't the current bill contain language to establish a reciprocity license for other backward States?

It does... HOWEVER, it doesn't - as written - have any provision to convert the currently issued LTCH's into the new 'reciprocity' licenses. You'd basically have a worthless piece of paper and have to start over. That would cause a lapse which could also cause someone to have to forfeit their current non-resident permits (Utah, Florida, Arizona, etc.) which are damn expensive!

To fix this, all one of our congress critters has to do is add language to the effect that existing LTCH's will automatically be valid reciprocity licenses... end of story.

Until this happens, it is BAD legislation for any of us that travel frequently or have large amounts of time and money already invested in being licenses broadly across other states.

We should pound on our reps to get that tidbit amended into this draft legislation and then it would be something ALL of us could totally get behind and support. It's literally a one sentence addition.

 

[rvb]

We're not talking about the current bill that has been proposed, and which I fully support. Rather, we're talking about the theoretical situation in which all provisions for an Indiana license (LTCH, "reciprocity" license, etc.) are removed from the statutes, such that Indiana offers no license whatsoever.

I, for one, was talking about the current bill. I'm concerned about the details of the new permit and whether AGs in other states will push back on it. I'm also concerned about the "overlap," ie the time in which there is no such thing as a LTCH, but I have to go through some hoops to get a new "reciprocity" license... a time in which I have no license for the purpose of carrying outside of IN. I'm concerned about how the change might affect my current non-res permits in other states (that require you have a permit in your home state).

Some here are saying "don't worry about it it's getting fixed." OK, I look forward to seeing those changes in the bill.

I don't see this as theoretical.

Constitutional Carry has the potential to negatively affect many Hoosiers' ability to carry [outside of IN] if not done right. There's no reason to not get it right, so that we have as much support from Hoosiers who carry as possible, vs causing a divide in support for the bill among those who otherwise would be getting behind it fully!

-rvb

 

[chipbennett]

I, for one, was talking about the current bill. I'm concerned about the details of the new permit and whether AGs in other states will push back on it. I'm also concerned about the "overlap," ie the time in which there is no such thing as a LTCH, but I have to go through some hoops to get a new "reciprocity" license... a time in which I have no license for the purpose of carrying outside of IN. I'm concerned about how the change might affect my current non-res permits in other states (that require you have a permit in your home state).

Some here are saying "don't worry about it it's getting fixed." OK, I look forward to seeing those changes in the bill.

I don't see this as theoretical.

Constitutional Carry has the potential to negatively affect many Hoosiers' ability to carry [outside of IN] if not done right. There's no reason to not get it right, so that we have as much support from Hoosiers who carry as possible, vs causing a divide in support for the bill among those who otherwise would be getting behind it fully!

-rvb

You and I are on the same page here: the currently proposed bill appropriately provides for a voluntary license for reciprocity purposes, and we need to get the currently proposed bill correct with respect to handling the transition from LTCH to any new license.

 

[IndyDave1776]

As this rabbit gets chased back and forth, I am left with one question: Why can we not simply leave the license to carry alone completely while not REQUIRING possession of one to carry, thus having constitutional carry without interfering with reciprocity?

 

[trophyhunter]

As this rabbit gets chased back and forth, I am left with one question: Why can we not simply leave the license to carry alone completely while not REQUIRING possession of one to carry, thus having constitutional carry without interfering with reciprocity?[/QUOTE

If any semblance of the current Indiana LTCH state code is left in place it makes it far easier for future bills to be passed re-enacting this piece of malfeasance, that's why.

It needs to die and be stricken entirely from the record.

 

[John Galt]

You and I are on the same page here: the currently proposed bill appropriately provides for a voluntary license for reciprocity purposes, and we need to get the currently proposed bill correct with respect to handling the transition from LTCH to any new license.

My very reliable source tells me that the bill, HB 1056 as drafted, is being amended to state that the existing lifetime LTCH remains in effect and the existing LTCH license will be merely optional, for reciprocity purposes.

 

[chipbennett]

If any semblance of the current Indiana LTCH state code is left in place it makes it far easier for future bills to be passed re-enacting this piece of malfeasance, that's why.

Oh, come now; be reasonable. If there were enough legislative support to reenact the criminalization of carry of handguns, then it would pass with or without legacy LTCH language still in the statutes.

It needs to die and be stricken entirely from the record.

For those of us who travel outside of the state: no. At least not until there is 50-state constitutional carry.

 

[chipbennett]

My very reliable source tells me that the bill, HB 1056 as drafted, is being amended to state that the existing lifetime LTCH remains in effect and the existing LTCH license will be merely optional, for reciprocity purposes.

Perfect!

(Though, I would have no problem paying a modest fee for an even replacement of the LTCH with some new card. The current LTCH replacement fee seems reasonable.)

 

[BFG]

Perfect!

(Though, I would have no problem paying a modest fee for an even replacement of the LTCH with some new card. The current LTCH replacement fee seems reasonable.)

^^^^This (plus you'd get one of those new fangled plastic ones)

 

[Viper1973]

My very reliable source tells me that the bill, HB 1056 as drafted, is being amended to state that the existing lifetime LTCH remains in effect and the existing LTCH license will be merely optional, for reciprocity purposes.

Once this takes place we should ALL be able to get behind this legislation. However, that has to happen first.