Confederate Flag

[henktermaat]

I got into this conversation with a lib from out east once. He said the flag = racism. I basically said "who cares." They have the right to express whatever the hell they want. In addition, no man can judge the heart of another; so racists they may, or may not, be.

 

[Mr. Habib]

With all of this very interesting discussion about Southern culture and history, where does this fit in?

 

[redneckmedic]

With all of this very interesting discussion about Southern culture and history, where does this fit in?

Right after this recalled or banned video...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEK45-_5y0s]YouTube - POPEYE the SAILOR in "Your a Sap Mr. Jap[/ame]

 

[haldir]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mQRvT51HvE&feature=related]YouTube - REBEL PRIDE (song of the south)[/ame]

 

[edsinger]

I always thought that Lincoln should have compensated the South for the slaves since he was going to make something that was legal, illegal, overnight.

Again...follow the money, its amazing how this statement rings clear no matter the year.....

 

[PatMcGroyne]

THINK ABOUT THIS:

In how many nations has slavery NOT ended?? Has it ended in Cuba? ....Mexico? ...Sudan? ...Argentina? ...Korea? ...China? ...Russia? Anywhere-o-Stan? I could go on. But there is some cross-over taking place as more and more Americans realize that the Gubmint is the major enemy of Liberty for ALL of us. Many of us who live south of the Mason-Dixon Line have realized this sooner than some of us who live north of it. But a "Country Boy Will Survive" is NOT a rallying-cry used only in the secessionist states. Not any more!! We ALL understand silent stalking, camo, Mossberg, 1911, Savage, Kershaw, and lots more good names. Any Country Boy can tell you how to stop airline hijackers: stand a Johhny, fully armed, and smilin', with full display of crossed Old Glory and Starz'n'barz at the top of the boarding stairs just before the flight departs. No, these yahoooze don't mind blowing up themselves and hundreds of others, but they shore-z-heck don't want to take a slow death from a Country Boy's whuppin' and then skinnin' !! Conceived in Charleston; born in Detroit; loyal only to those like me. I remain: urban guerilla. Pat

What is sad is that not one other nation had to fight a war to end slavery.

You ought to get out more, son.
Until hate dies, slavery ain't done.

 

[versuchstier147]

I flew one off the back of my truck for about four months until someone stole it.

I got a new one, and keep it indoors.


It's about The Constitution as written. I support our StateS' right to govern themselves. The North was absolutly wrong to attack the South.

If I gave two sh-ts about racism I'd fly the banner of The KKK. I don't have a problem with black people. It's purely about the rights we seem to have lost in this country.

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v61/216/73/646750440/n646750440_48555_7200.jpg

 

[redneckmedic]

In how many nations has slavery NOT ended?? Has it ended in Cuba? ....Mexico? ...Sudan? ...Argentina? ...Korea? ...China? ...Russia? Anywhere-o-Stan?

You are looking too far away, the U.S. the #1 country in the world right now for human trafficking and slavery.

But the point is, what does the stars and bars have to do with slavery? Or racism? Blacks are even close to the highest percentage of race that has been subjected into slavery in the world, and up to date even in this country.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The North was absolutly wrong to attack the South.

You do know that it was the South that attacked the North.

You do know that it was the South that waged a war of aggression that included attacking neutral states, such as our neighbor Kentucky.

But the point is, what does the stars and bars have to do with slavery? Or racism?

Because it was the battle flag of the CSA whose reason for existence was to preserve slavery and promote white supremacy as Confederate leaders all admitted.

 

[haldir]

You do know that it was the South that attacked the North.

They were simply trying to liberate a fort on their soil from a foreign occupier.

 

[FordMan08]

Just imagine if Hopsing on Bonanza was black, people would be calling the Cartwrights racist.

 

[Fargo]

You have it backwards. It was the South, not the North that used slavery to rally support for the war, e.g. Stephens Cornerstone Speech. The South fought to save slavery. Indeed, Lincoln was very clear that his Republican war aims were to save the Union, not free the slaves.



The South became aggressive and started the war. Even during the course of the war the South continued to attack bystanders and drag them into the war, e.g. Kentucky.

The North did not seek to impose anything on the South, unless you mean the Northern Abolitionists (a small minority of the population) who sought to free the slaves and that upset the South. And, as we see from the historical record, it did upset the South to the point that they attacked the Union.



It was slavery, all to do with slavery by the South's own admission.

After the Civil War, the the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1866, it became more difficult for respectable Southerners to admit that the war had been about slavery, thus General Early and the Lost Causers tried to turn the war into some struggle over economics.

Yeah, cause the <25% of the southern populace that owned slaves just ran over the other 75%. I'm sorry Kirk but I really have to disagree with you about this. The civil war became about slavery in 1863 when northern support for the war was flagging due to the death toll and Lincoln could no longer keep public support based upon purely economic grounds. It was at that point that he painted his war as a moral crusade to free the slaves.

Were there southerners who justified the war based upon slavery? Of course, just like the abolitionists of the north did. However, neither the pro nor the con slave party was even close to a majority in the north or south; economics and state sovereignty were the real issues.

You do know that it was the South that attacked the North.

C'mon Kirk, what state was Fort Sumter in? What state is Manasses in? Here is a hint: neither are in the north.

You do know that it was the South that waged a war of aggression that included attacking neutral states, such as our neighbor Kentucky.

Once again, before we get into "wars of aggression" what state is Manasses in?

Because it was the battle flag of the CSA whose reason for existence was to preserve slavery and promote white supremacy as Confederate leaders all admitted.

You're an attorney, I'm going to need your cite (bluebook format preferred for both Robert E. Lee's admission that he was a slavery loving supporter of white supremacy AND that that was why he served in the war. I'm going to need that cite as well on Jefferson Davis. Good luck with that.


Best,

Joe

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The civil war became about slavery in 1863 when northern support for the war was flagging due to the death toll and Lincoln could no longer keep public support based upon purely economic grounds.

The Civil War was about slavery before there was a Civil War. Indeed to use Lincoln's words in March of 1860 it was more important than any other issue before the Civil War. You do know what the Lincoln-Douglas debates were about? Hint: it was not about bacon.

You know who Senator Calhoun was? How he declared (in the 1830s) that defending slavery was the "highest and most solemn obligation" of a Southerner.

You have heard of the Missiouri Compromise? You have heard about how Dred Scott overruled it?

You about the Kansas-Nebraska Act? You know why they called "Bleeding Kansas" or "Bloody Kansas"? Hint: people were killing each other over slavery, not sports teams.

Why did John Brown generate so much hysteria in the South? Southern politicians linked him to the Republican party and how the Republicans wanted to destroy slavery. John Townsend, a noted South Carolinan senator, declared that after the election of Lincoln that the Republicans wanted to rule the South and abolish slavery (note he was not citing tariffs to incite hysteria and whip us war fever).

The historical record is replete with examples of Southerners telling us exactly how important slavery was to them. A pamphleteer from South Carolina named Edward Byrans best summed it up for the South in 1860 immediately before the Civil War: "Give us Slavery or give us death!"

In fact Southerners today post their support for slavery and white supremacy on the walls of their museums. Go to Austin, on the second floor (above the cowboy boot display) there hangs the Texas Delcaration of Causes for Secession. Up at the top it gives slavery as a reason for leaving and state emphatically that blacks are inferior and Texas needs to leave to preserve that "fact".

Look at the Confederate Constitution. If "states' rights" were so all fired (a little Southern lingo) important why could not a state abolish it within their borders? Why must a slave from Georgia remain forever a slave, even if he escaped to "free" Tennessee (let's say)? Perpetual slavery without end.

C'mon Kirk, what state was Fort Sumter in? What state is Manasses in? Here is a hint: neither are in the north.

Both are in the United States of America.

Robert E. Lee's admission that he was a slavery loving supporter of white supremacy AND that that was why he served in the war.

There are several but I'll give you one from a recent book, Jay Winik's April 1865 (an excellent read and you'll probably have more respect for Lee and his recongition that his cause was unjust and lost as he abandoned all plans for guerilla war). No doubt Lee was a genius and struggled with his decision to betray his country. However, Lee knew the evil for which he was fighting. He was not blind.

In it Winik tells of a Sunday service at Saint Paul's just after the Civil War where an African-American walked up to receive communion. The crowd was in shock. Robert E. Lee rose and stated that the CSA lost the war for white supremacy and now must learn to live with blacks. Lee then walked to the front and knelt at the railing beside the black man.

I'm going to need that cite as well on Jefferson Davis. Good luck with that.

Jefferson Davis had a long public record and throughout his career he always defended slavery. Finding out how much Jeff Davis hated blacks and loved slavery is easy.

In the United States Senate as to the inferiority of blacks that you requested, look to Jefferson Davis speech on February 29, 1860, "[w]e recognize the fact of the inferiority stamped upon that race [guess which race Jeffy is talking about? C'mon, guess] of men by the Creator."

Jeff was even speechifying (more Southern lingo) before there was a CSA. In front of the Confederate Congress of April 1861 he delcared slavery of the Africans to be "indespensible" to the South.

You can loook up his remarks on slavery in his Inaugural Address as Provisional President, 18 February 1861 (Montgomery, Alabama). He really liked it and thought it was necessary to the South. Heck, you can just look at the CSA Constitution and see that (he was more oversight on the CSACONST.).

It's no secret that the South fought the war to preserve slavery and defend white supremacy. Heck, you do know about the old Democratic emblem--the rooster? Now it's the donkey, but then it was the rooster and in Alabama the slogan "white supremacy" was added to it after the Civil War.

The Ku Klux Klan dressed as the ghosts of whom? Keebler elves or dead Confederates?

Slavery was everything to the South. The went to war, they bleed for it and that was before the Civil War (Kansas). The South suffered greatly to defend slavery and afterwards needed to reconstruct (a little southern lingo) a new cause of war since defending slavery was not as respectable as when antebellum Souterners were speechifying.

 

[Fargo]

The Civil War was about slavery before there was a Civil War. Indeed to use Lincoln's words in March of 1860 it was more important than any other issue before the Civil War. You do know what the Lincoln-Douglas debates were about? Hint: it was not about bacon.

You know who Senator Calhoun was? How he declared (in the 1830s) that defending slavery was the "highest and most solemn obligation" of a Southerner.

You have heard of the Missiouri Compromise? You have heard about how Dred Scott overruled it?

You about the Kansas-Nebraska Act? You know why they called "Bleeding Kansas" or "Bloody Kansas"? Hint: people were killing each other over slavery, not sports teams.

Why did John Brown generate so much hysteria in the South? Southern politicians linked him to the Republican party and how the Republicans wanted to destroy slavery. John Townsend, a noted South Carolinan senator, declared that after the election of Lincoln that the Republicans wanted to rule the South and abolish slavery (note he was not citing tariffs to incite hysteria and whip us war fever).

As noted above, I never said it was not a factor or that there were not those who wanted to go to war over it. I simply pointed out that its not rational to impute these feelings to the 70% + who didn't own slaves and who would have had the deciding vote whether or not to seceed.

No one denies that slavery had alot to do with it, but it was within the subset of economics and tied in closely with the tariff issues that had led South Carolina to threaten to leave the union a couple decades before.

The historical record is replete with examples of Southerners telling us exactly how important slavery was to them. A pamphleteer from South Carolina named Edward Byrans best summed it up for the South in 1860 immediately before the Civil War: "Give us Slavery or give us death!"

As noted above, I certainly believe that there were those who held such beliefs, but you've yet to show me they were the one's making the decisions.

In fact Southerners today post their support for slavery and white supremacy on the walls of their museums. Go to Austin, on the second floor (above the cowboy boot display) there hangs the Texas Delcaration of Causes for Secession. Up at the top it gives slavery as a reason for leaving and state emphatically that blacks are inferior and Texas needs to leave to preserve that "fact".

If you change the bolded word above to "the" you have a point, but you put "a" there so I assume you meant it.

Look at the Confederate Constitution. If "states' rights" were so all fired (a little Southern lingo) important why could not a state abolish it within their borders? Why must a slave from Georgia remain forever a slave, even if he escaped to "free" Tennessee (let's say)? Perpetual slavery without end.

Article and clause please. I'm assuming you are referring to Article 4 Section 3 Sub 3. If so, I don't think it means what you think it means.

Both are in the United States of America.

Yeah, and the United States of America are still part of Great Britain.... Or not.

There are several but I'll give you one from a recent book, Jay Winik's April 1865 (an excellent read and you'll probably have more respect for Lee and his recongition that his cause was unjust and lost as he abandoned all plans for guerilla war). No doubt Lee was a genius and struggled with his decision to betray his country. However, Lee knew the evil for which he was fighting. He was not blind.

In it Winik tells of a Sunday service at Saint Paul's just after the Civil War where an African-American walked up to receive communion. The crowd was in shock. Robert E. Lee rose and stated that the CSA lost the war for white supremacy and now must learn to live with blacks. Lee then walked to the front and knelt at the railing beside the black man.

I still need a cite. Reference to a book and paraphrasing in your own words is far from that.

Jefferson Davis had a long public record and throughout his career he always defended slavery. Finding out how much Jeff Davis hated blacks and loved slavery is easy.

In the United States Senate as to the inferiority of blacks that you requested, look to Jefferson Davis speech on February 29, 1860, "[w]e recognize the fact of the inferiority stamped upon that race [guess which race Jeffy is talking about? C'mon, guess] of men by the Creator."
CSACONST.).

If you thought that all I requested was a cite to the belief that blacks were inferior, you need to go back and reread what I asked for a citation to. I can give you a dozen quotes showing that LINCOLN believed in white supremacy but that doesn't exactly prove that he went to war primarily to preserve slavery, now does it?

It's no secret that the South fought the war to preserve slavery and defend white supremacy. Heck, you do know about the old Democratic emblem--the rooster? Now it's the donkey, but then it was the rooster and in Alabama the slogan "white supremacy" was added to it after the Civil War.

And what happened post-war has what to do with the motivations pre-war?

The Ku Klux Klan dressed as the ghosts of whom? Keebler elves or dead Confederates?

See above.

Slavery was everything to the South. The went to war, they bleed for it and that was before the Civil War (Kansas). The South suffered greatly to defend slavery and afterwards needed to reconstruct (a little southern lingo) a new cause of war since defending slavery was not as respectable as when antebellum Souterners were speechifying.

Your opinion and mine obviously differs.

Best,

Joe

 

[Kirk Freeman]

As noted above, I never said it was not a factor or that there were not those who wanted to go to war over it.

It was the controlling factor. Southern politicians talked about the importance of slavery to the South decades before the Civil War. All of the most important issues of antebelllum politics revovled around slavery--Missouri Compromise, Kansas, Kansas-Nebraska, Lincoln-Douglas debates, Fugitive Slave Act, John Brown, the election of 1860.

These same Southern politicians put the reasons for leaving the Union, slavery and defending white supremacy, in their petitions to explain their leaving the Union.

but you've yet to show me they were the one's making the decisions.

If you refuse to look at the Southern politicians who defended slavery as making the decisions, then look at the states as a whole. The states with the highest number of slaves were the first to leave the Union. All Southern states raised troops for the Union with the exception of the state with the highest number of slaves, South Carolina.

It was slavery that drove the South's cause of war.

I still need a cite. Reference to a book and paraphrasing in your own words is far from that

I have given you a citation, Jay Winik's April 1865. IIRC the Saint Paul incident is toward the end of the book approximately (maybe) page 360 or so.

The Saint Paul incident has been detailed elsewhere as well.

The Southern generals were intelligent, educated men, but knew they were fighting for great evil. Heck, even staunch defender of slavery Nathan Bedford Forest quit the Klan. A new reason for the war had to be constructed and General Early lead the revisionist history.

can give you a dozen quotes showing that LINCOLN believed in white supremacy but that doesn't exactly prove that he went to war primarily to preserve slavery, now does it

You asked for quotations showing that Jeffy Davis thought blacks inferior I gave them to you. It matters not what Lincoln thought about blacks as he did not leave the Union to uphold white supremacy as the South did

And what happened post-war has what to do with the motivations pre-war?

.

Because it shows the motives of why the South started the war and fought to the bitter end. The terrorist campaign of the Klan was waged to deny blacks their civil rights, an essential element of the Confederacy (that's why the Klan dressed like Confederate ghosts).

Recent historical work shows how Confederate veterans waged an incessant terror campaign on blacks, not tariffs. Nicholas Lemann's work, Redemption: The Last Battle of the Civil War, details how a Confederate militia massacred blacks in Colfax, Louisana all to defend the South against blacks and to protect white supremacy, the same reasons that they fought for the CSA.

It was not local rights, it was about slavery and white supremacy. That's why Mississippi waged a intrastate civil war against a county that tried to leave Mississippi as detailed in the recent work The Free State of Jones (soon to be a movie).

Your opinion and mine obviously differs

Yes, obviously. It seems General Early is smiling somewhere.

 

[haldir]

All of the most important issues of antebelllum politics revovled around slavery--Missouri Compromise, Kansas, Kansas-Nebraska, Lincoln-Douglas debates, Fugitive Slave Act, John Brown, the election of 1860.

Let me just add that the controversy was much discussed even by the Founders. The issue was much discussed from the start of this country. Many of the Founders knew that the issue would be contentious and did their best to avoid allowing it to destroy the process of passing the Constitution.