Confederate Flag

[matthock]

Something to keep in mind with the Ft Sumter thing. It was built following the War of 1812 by the Army Corps of Engineers. It wasn't so much a fort in SC that the Union army occupied, so much as both sides had some level of claim to it. The Union army had claim as its original builder and operator, plus the secession was considered to be illegal to begin with so they never relinquished claim over it. South Carolina's claim was that after the secession it was in sovereign territory and hence not under command of the Union army any longer.

The Union forces in Ft Sumter didn't come out of nowhere - they weren't marched down out of the north to occupy it or such. Sumter was one of 4 forts near Charleston. The forces that moved into Sumter 5 days after the secession actually came from Ft Moultrie, another of the Charlston forts - Moultrie was an older design (Rev. War era, as opposed to the post-1812 Ft Sumter) that was seen as indefensible if the Confederate army were to attack, so they repositioned. The 4 forts were all originally manned by the army, but the soldiers from 3 of the 4 surrendered immediately after secession rather than fight.

 

[chraland51]

Slavery was a very hot and devicive issue in this country. However, the war was fought over states' rights and slavery was just one of many. The freeing of the slaves seemed to be more of an afterthought for Lincoln in his heroic attempt to save the union. I have to know the motives of those who fly the confederate flag before I can form an opinion. I do not think that states should be forced to remove from their current state flags or be prohibited from flying the confederate flag on their statehouse lawns or other public sites. It is part of their heritage and history and something that they need not be ashamed of no matter what some special interest groups may say.

 

[sixgun]

Respect

Sooo, what are your thoughts on those who "proudly" fly the southern colors? Here are the most popular arguments:

1. It's not hate its heritage! I'm proud its a part of our history.
2. The south lost the war get over it! Your a racist!

My take:

I don't fly Southern Colors, I never have, I don't get it. I don't really think that you (whoever flies the southern colors) expects any of us that you are flying the "stars and bars" because of some kind of sentimental memory you have with this flag. Really?!? I'm from the south, lived there almost 20yrs and this flag played 0% influence on my life or anyone I knew.

So my suspicion is that you (who flies the colors of the south) are just being passive aggressive. You can deny all you want, but when it comes down to it, your making a statement.

However I am willing to be open-minded here and would like for someone to debate the other side.

The flag is a battle flag.A symbol that army's could march into battle with.It was made to represent the states that receded from the union due to states rights issues.The north was hell bent on preserving the union and the south was hell bent on not loosing their states rights.That argument happened in our back yards and ended with 620,000 brothers dead of all colors.That rebel flag lay ed across many dead and dyeing Americans that never owned a slave or ever would.Those southern boys were told stories by their dads about how they had fought for the same reasons.To take the flag further away from the slavery issue look at a quote from a letter written to Horace Greeley editor of the new York tribune."My paramount object in this struggle is to save the union,and is not either to save or destroy slavery.If I could save the union without freeing any slave I would do it,and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it;and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.This letter was written by the norths commander in chief Presentdent Lincoln on 8-22-1862.In the mid section of the war.I am a proud Yankee and will always respect what the south was willing to die for.With that comes respect for their battle flag.

 

[22lr]

Ok ill say it.

Fact is 95% of all historians will still tell you the cause of war is open for debate. Its like WWI its was a bloody war and we may never fully understand why we fought it. It will always be open for debate since non of us were there, yet the issue will never be settled since neither side is willing to listen. History is fascinating, yet never fully understood.

Still the fact remains that the United States won the war and that is that.

 

[22lr]

The freeing of the slaves seemed to be more of an afterthought for Lincoln in his heroic attempt to save the union.

People think Lincoln freed slaves to help the cause with the Northern people. Actually England was getting ready to join the South but they had just banned slavery a few years earlier and Lincoln wanted to remind them that they would be joining a pro-slavery army. A political move England could not afford to make. So indeed it was more of an afterthought, albeit a good one. Sadly the boarder states were allowed to keep slaves until after the war for fear that they would change sides, and fight against the US.

 

[Prometheus]

People think Lincoln freed slaves to help the cause with the Northern people. Actually England was getting ready to join the South but they had just banned slavery a few years earlier and Lincoln wanted to remind them that they would be joining a pro-slavery army. A political move England could not afford to make. So indeed it was more of an afterthought, albeit a good one. Sadly the boarder states were allowed to keep slaves until after the war for fear that they would change sides, and fight against the US.

Exactly.

People also don't realize that economically, slavery was almost at an end. Machinery was making huge leaps and bounds at replacing farm hands and slaves are not cheap to maintain.

Most people think of a farm w/ slaves and think of a white man with a whip beating the slaves in the field. This was generally are rare event. Happy and healthy slaves (as happy as they could be anyway) did more work, less sabotage and ran away less frequently.

Think of it this way. You buy a horse. First off, it was an expensive INVESTMENT. If you poorly feed your horse, neglect it's health and beat it constantly it will become lame, die or run off (after possibly trampling you). Same went for slaves. Buying a slave was like buying a BMW today. It was EXPENSIVE! Like a horse or car or whatever else, if you don't take care of it, you not only lose it's use but the capital investment in acquiring it! You have to feed it well (especially if you expect it to work 8-12 hours day), provide health care, housing, clothes... EVERYTHING!

Sounds harsh, but reality is reality. Slavery was quickly approaching the point of diminishing returns and everyone knew it at the time. Within a few years slavery would have not been cost effective and would have went the way of the dodo.

Thus once again proving that slavery was an after thought not the reason for The War of Northern Aggression.

Also for the many ignorant people in this thread THIS:

is the Confederate States of America Flag.

This:

is the Confederate Navy Jack Battle Flag, which was used primarily by the Southern Navy, although some ground forces flew the flag as well.

Again, proof that ignorance is the cause of most disagreements, including those who think the above two flags represent hate.

 

[Glock21]

Having grown up in SC and having plenty of family and friends there and in GA, I've seen a few sides of this argument that seem appropriate to share.

First of all, yes there are definitely those who see and use the Confederate flag as a symbol of their own prejudices and disdain for people who are "different looking" than they are. That point can't be argued and is ridiculous in my opinion. People who see and use the Confederate flag in this manner are hateful people by nature and not the kind of good folks I personally want to have at my BBQ grill.

Secondly, in SC we were required to complete two years of South Carolina history in order to graduate from high school. To me, that was one of the greatest requirements of our basic education in that we were required to know our State and to understand how it got to be where it is today. We learned the goo, bad and ugly and let me assure you there was plenty of all three.

The initial succession from the Union by South Carolina and several other states was not (contrary to popular belief) about slavery per se. It was about States' rights and, specifically, about the issue that an incoming president was attempting to single-handedly declare changes to laws in states without those changes being approved by the States themselves and ratified by their voters.

It had been less than a hundred years since the US had won it's independence from the English and people were more than a little concerned about dictatorial sounding proclamations from the President. Yes, the President was trying to mandate changes regarding slavery, but keep in mind that a VERY small portion of the populations in the states that succeeded owned slaves. Certainly not enough to cause a succession and start a war over slavery.

Instead, the population as a whole were not of the belief that the government in Washington should be mandating behavior in the States. The belief was that Washington should be more concerned about infrastructure and foreign issues and that the States should be more concerned about their own affairs.

The population as a whole (you know...the ones who were actually fighting) were not fighting to preserve slavery. They were fighting to preserve States' rights. In spite of the particular issue it was over, I am proud that our citizenry at one point in time had the strength to say "no, you can't do that" to Washington.

I in no way whatsoever condone the years of slavery that existed any more than I condone the fact that women were once not able to vote or have bank accounts. As a nation, we've done some pretty stupid things in our past that made all the sense in the world...until later when we realized they didn't make any sense at all. The issue of slavery was no different.

When I see the Confederate Flag, I don't view it as a symbol of racism, slavery, hatred or anything of the sort - though I also don't try to pretend that some people out there DO see it that way. I see it as a symbol of the courage many of our states had at one time to draw a line in the sand and say "no" to Washington. I see it more as an issue of States' Rights. I don't fly the Confederate Flag, have it tattooed on my arm or anything like that, but I also don't automatically paint those who do with the KKK brush because of what I learned about SC history.

The ironic point that has been lost over the years is that there was a lot of talk at that time in SC about abolishing slavery anyway, but as with most major changes, nothing was moving very quickly and there were concerns about what would happen if the vast majority of the workforce processing cotton, cane, etc. simply vanished all at once. Change was coming and the people of SC wanted it. They simply would not stand for having change mandated upon them by Washington.

Keep in mind that Delaware, New York, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Ohio and a few other Northern States were slave states as well...some of them until just a few years before the American Civil War. There was plenty of wrong to go around and that wrong lasted much longer in the agricultural areas of the South than in the North.

Really interesting reply - thanks!

 

[SavageEagle]

Just out of curiosity, what's the three stripes mean?

 

[SC_Shooter]

Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This will give you some more info on the progression of the CSA flags. It really does not get into what the three stripes represent and I don't recall from those school days so many years ago.

 

[Glock21]

Didn't the species die out from broken backs???

Actually, an overbearing Federal government banned it because they claimed it was causing children to take up smoking.

Brief quote from Wiki:


"The banning of the camel, (aka "Joe the Plumber"), resulted in a civil war between Madison Avenue and the Federal Government. Madison Ave declared their right to corrupt at will, due to their omnipotence declared in the First Commandment [Thou shall have no other Gods before me]. Washington, on the other hand, claimed it had a right to regulate under the 10th plank of the Communist Manifesto [Combining of industry and education]. Parents remained neutral, some fearful of audit, others fearful of Morton Downey, Jr.

The long and bloody war resulted in the deaths of multiple sitcoms, (due to lack of advertizing funds), as well as the extinction of said camel.

In the years following the war, alternate views of history began to appear. One of the more notable texts is entitled 'Joe - Symbol of Phallic, or Symbol of Freedom?'

In retrospect, many on both sides consider the war to have been fought in vein, as 'John Wayne hated lung cancer'. [ http://http://vodpod.com/watch/1893862-john-wayne-hates-lung-cancer ]"

-End quote

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Phil502]

I always thought that Lincoln should have compensated the South for the slaves since he was going to make something that was legal, illegal, overnight.

 

[jsgolfman]

Ok ill say it.

Fact is 95% of all historians will still tell you the cause of war is open for debate. Its like WWI its was a bloody war and we may never fully understand why we fought it. It will always be open for debate since non of us were there, yet the issue will never be settled since neither side is willing to listen. History is fascinating, yet never fully understood.

Still the fact remains that the United States won the war and that is that.

Let's remember that it is THESE United States, not THE United States. The more people understand that distinction, the less abuse they will be wiling to take from the federal government.

 

[hemicharger]

I work in Mars Hill and every other house has one flying on a pole, strung up on a fence or used as a window curtain.

 

[indytechnerd]

Cleanly stepping away from the Civil War discussion, I'll put up my thoughts on the OP. The issue is similar to Relichound's. SE, this is not directed at you. I knew several kids when I made my 2nd trip to Indiana State who had the "Confederate Flag" (thanks SC_Shooter) either in the window of their truck, literally flying from a post stuck on their truck, or stuck to it in sticker form. These guys also had the belt buckle, hat (baseball, not cowboy) and at least 1 or 2 t-shirts. To add to the 'look', there were a few of bumper stickers along the lines of "The South will Rise Again".
Now, here's the kicker. None of these kids had ever been out of Indiana, with the possible exception of a trip to FL for spring break. That's what kills me. Who the F are these knuckleheads? Maybe if they had a single drop of southern blood, but no. When the farthest south you've ever been is a trip to Kentucky Kingdom, waving the flag and proclaiming yourself a 'rebel' makes you look like a jackarse.

Half my family tree runs through a town of about 400 people in BF Louisiana. I've got the pedigree to call out yanks.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Cleanly stepping away from the Civil War discussion, I'll put up my thoughts on the OP. The issue is similar to Relichound's. SE, this is not directed at you. I knew several kids when I made my 2nd trip to Indiana State who had the "Confederate Flag" (thanks SC_Shooter) either in the window of their truck, literally flying from a post stuck on their truck, or stuck to it in sticker form. These guys also had the belt buckle, hat (baseball, not cowboy) and at least 1 or 2 t-shirts. To add to the 'look', there were a few of bumper stickers along the lines of "The South will Rise Again".
Now, here's the kicker. None of these kids had ever been out of Indiana, with the possible exception of a trip to FL for spring break. That's what kills me. Who the F are these knuckleheads? Maybe if they had a single drop of southern blood, but no. When the farthest south you've ever been is a trip to Kentucky Kingdom, waving the flag and proclaiming yourself a 'rebel' makes you look like a jackarse.

Half my family tree runs through a town of about 400 people in BF Louisiana. I've got the pedigree to call out yanks.

So in other words, if you don't have ancestry in the south you can't stand up for the cause that they stood for? Is that what you're saying? Because I truly believe in the cause of the south and feel as if they should've won. I was born and raised in IN, 1 mile from the farm that my family first settled when they came here in 1847 so I'm sure that very little, if any, of my ancestry is from the south. My great great great grandfather was an officer for one of the Indiana Battalions in the war; and I still side with the south. So are you saying that I should side with the "Yanks" and support a centralized, controlling government?

Sorry if this isn't how you meant it, thats just how it comes across (at least to me).

 

[indytechnerd]

So in other words, if you don't have ancestry in the south you can't stand up for the cause that they stood for? Is that what you're saying? Because I truly believe in the cause of the south and feel as if they should've won. I was born and raised in IN, 1 mile from the farm that my family first settled when they came here in 1847 so I'm sure that very little, if any, of my ancestry is from the south. My great great great grandfather was an officer for one of the Indiana Battalions in the war; and I still side with the south. So are you saying that I should side with the "Yanks" and support a centralized, controlling government?

Sorry if this isn't how you meant it, thats just how it comes across (at least to me).

I rank it right up there with 'tacticool' guys at the range and suburban white kids throwing gang signs. I love scotch, but you won't see me wearing a kilt and tartan all over. You'll also never see me in BDUs except at a paintball game, even though I'm a huge military buff and support the troops without caveat.

You can support any cause you choose, I don't have the right to stop you or tell you what to do. But, when a 19yr old kid from a white collar family in a medium sized Indiana town tells me "I'm a rebel, baby! Hell Yeah", I feel a strong desire to smack the red right off his neck. True story, that. In 1997, I had returned to ISU to fnish my degree and questioned a classmate about his 3/4 ton Cummins with lift, mudders, and straight pipes, adorned with all manner of confederate stuff. My post above describes this kid further.

 

[LEaSH]

There's undoubtedly some kind of romanticism connected with the southern culture that some northerners admire and emulate. You wont see too many people dressed up as Colonel Sanders or southern bells, but in the music and laguage as well as attitude, you can find it anywhere in the USA, even kalifornia - especially kalifornia outside of the trendy parts.

Kids in the country do the same thing in respect to inner city 'utes in the way of slang, mannerisms, and fashion (if you want to call it that).

 

[whiskeytangofoxtrot]

I rank it right up there with 'tacticool' guys at the range and suburban white kids throwing gang signs. I love scotch, but you won't see me wearing a kilt and tartan all over. You'll also never see me in BDUs except at a paintball game, even though I'm a huge military buff and support the troops without caveat.

You can support any cause you choose, I don't have the right to stop you or tell you what to do. But, when a 19yr old kid from a white collar family in a medium sized Indiana town tells me "I'm a rebel, baby! Hell Yeah", I feel a strong desire to smack the red right off his neck. True story, that. In 1997, I had returned to ISU to fnish my degree and questioned a classmate about his 3/4 ton Cummins with lift, mudders, and straight pipes, adorned with all manner of confederate stuff. My post above describes this kid further.

I understand exactly what you are talking about here. Those types are still at ISU. Every chance I get I question them about it too. Most of them are too young to understand anything about it, they just like the image. My brother was included until I enlightened him on the subject. Needless to say the rebel flag front plate isn't on his truck anymore...probably just because he didn't want to be preached at anymore.

 

[LEaSH]

I remember an old issue of Road & Track that was doing a review on the new Ferrari at the time - I think it was the 348gtb so it must have been 15 years ago or so.

Anyways, whomever owned the new Ferrari had the rebel flag front plate. No mention in the article about it, just kind of clashed with the whole thing. Cracked me up a bit - it was just seemingly gaudy on purpose, kind of like the wealthy owner had a bizarre sense of humor.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I rank it right up there with 'tacticool' guys at the range and suburban white kids throwing gang signs. I love scotch, but you won't see me wearing a kilt and tartan all over. You'll also never see me in BDUs except at a paintball game, even though I'm a huge military buff and support the troops without caveat.

You can support any cause you choose, I don't have the right to stop you or tell you what to do. But, when a 19yr old kid from a white collar family in a medium sized Indiana town tells me "I'm a rebel, baby! Hell Yeah", I feel a strong desire to smack the red right off his neck. True story, that. In 1997, I had returned to ISU to fnish my degree and questioned a classmate about his 3/4 ton Cummins with lift, mudders, and straight pipes, adorned with all manner of confederate stuff. My post above describes this kid further.

I get what you're saying, but the way I saw it you were saying that people from the south can say those things, but people from the north shouldn't. Is that how you meant it to come across?

If so, I'm calling you out on that. Why shouldn't somebody from a different location support a cause? That'd be like saying a person in the U.S. shouldn't support Israel because they didn't grow up there. That seems sort of silly, to say that you had to grow up somewhere to support their cause.

I don't disagree at all about the "rednecks" that think its cool to "be a rebel" and all that garbage, thats part of what gives the CSA flag a bad rap. I agree that a person ignorant of the symbolism and true history of the south and their cause shouldn't be acting like that, but IMHO that doesn't give reason to say that "yanks" shouldn't support that cause.

Like I said before, I support the "south" in the manner of limited federal government and emphasis on states rights. And I feel that I'm not doing anything wrong and I'm not disgracing anybody by doing so. As you may have seen in my previous post (pg 6 I think) I don't fly the CSA flag, I'm not outspoken about being in support because the symbolism of that has been ruined by those that ignorantly choose to act a "rebels", which is often associated with racism. I can certainly understand where you're coming from, but I think you're only seeing one side of it, and that is the outspoken, ignorant, "rebel" that probably has no idea what the CSA really stood for and what he is "supporting".