Common OC/CC threadjack

[ATM]

Here's a question. For those of you who regularly OC, what type of holster do you use? Specifically, what type of retention? I have OC'd occassionly, usually when it is just a quick trip out of the car (pumping gas, getting cash from the ATM, etc). Since I use a holster with no retention strap, I wouldn't even consider OCing in a holster that someone could easily snatch it from. Just curious what others do.

Getting cash from the ATM... whatcha selling?

I use a Fobus holster with adjustable tension screw set fairly tight. It takes a decent yank straight up to get it out. Once I had experimented with it a bit and tried removing at different angles I felt better about its retention. Still not the best but better than some others.

 

[Srtsi4wd]

I'll weigh in here. In the most recent issue of Handgunner the Ayoob files was very relevant. Quick synopsis, older, former Marine, combat vet, goes to Subway for a late night meal. Dumps trash with back to door. Two thugs come in guns drawn. Marine is CC his compact .45, thugs have no idea he's packing. He complies, gives up wallet and clerk gives up register cash. Thugs decide to move marine and clerk to bathroom. Marine reads into where this is going and decides that now is the time, waits for right moment, gets drop on both BGs and shoots them both.

In this situation, OC would have got him killed before he even turned around. CC saved his life.
Now if he had been OC and BGs had come in and sat down, cased the place and seen him OC, MAYBE it wouldn't have gone down. Then again MAYBE he would have gotten shot when his back was turned.

The possibility exists that no matter how alert you stay, the BGs may have the upper hand in a situation before you even realize that they do. The possibility also exists that the mere presence of your firearm alters space time and the robbery never is attempted and the clerk is never shot and no one ever knows that they were 2.5 seconds away from a life shattering event.
I think that the situation you are carrying in should dictate carry style. Judge your situation and circumstances, then make the carry style decsion that fits you best at that time. CC here, OC there, just carry.

And thank God that we live in a state that allows up to choose!

 

[turnandshoot4]

In this situation, OC would have got him killed before he even turned around. CC saved his life.
Now if he had been OC and BGs had come in and sat down, cased the place and seen him OC, MAYBE it wouldn't have gone down. Then again MAYBE he would have gotten shot when his back was turned.

I disagree. Why would they have came in, sat down to case the place when they didn't in the first place? I haven't seen that someone was shot or shot first because they were OC'ing at all. Why would this case be any different?

Another scenario is they would have seen that the guy had a gun on his hip and moved on to the next easy target.

Great post keep 'em coming!

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

A leather, fitted Don Hume holster on a 1 3/4" leather belt with leather thumb strap. If a person tries to jerk my firearm out of the holster, he and I will be eye to eye as the holster holds it securely and it will spin my whole body around.

 

[kingnereli]

Quality holsters make it very difficult to remove the gun at any angle but strait up. This, at least, gives you enough time to react. Try it some time. have someone try to yank your gun out (unloaded of course.) It should take them awhile even if you don't fight back.

 

[Srtsi4wd]

I disagree. Why would they have came in, sat down to case the place when they didn't in the first place? I haven't seen that someone was shot or shot first because they were OC'ing at all. Why would this case be any different?

Another scenario is they would have seen that the guy had a gun on his hip and moved on to the next easy target.

Great post keep 'em coming!

I agree that a unique situation like this is NOT common. IMHO, the marines choice of CC instead of OC, resulted in him being able to gain control of the situation at the moment of his choosing. OC would have forced the issue and resulted in immediate hostilities. The BG's came in ready to shoot and ready to kill.

I'll post up the Ayoob file, downloading now.

To me there are different degrees of both types of carry, from deep concealment to blatant open carry. The type of carry should be chosen based on the expected venue and situation you are going to find yourself.

Whether you want to wear a .50AE Desert Eagle on your hip or a Lorcin .25 duct taped to your perineum, we should all be in support of carrying, period. We are lucky in our state to be able to have the ability to choose.

 

[Srtsi4wd]

When this armed citizen’s gunfight was over, almost everyone called him a hero. He had mixed feelings about that. He had retired after two honorable careers, the first as a United States Marine Corps aviator who among other duties had flown two US Presidents, and the second as a commercial airline pilot. It has been said when you first enter USMC Recruit Training, you might describe yourself as a man or a woman, or even as a boy or a girl. But when you walk back out through those gates, if asked “what are you?” you will answer proudly, “I am a Marine!”
This one was, most assuredly, A Marine. He has never talked to the press about his experience, until now. He told me, “I believe it was Andy Warhol circa 1971 who is credited with creating the phrase, ‘Everyone gets 15 minutes of fame.’ I have no interest in 15 seconds of notoriety. There is already too much on the Internet as it is.” He requested I not use his name when I told his story. I respect that. Accordingly, I will refer to him here simply as, “the Marine.”​

The Incident​

When you are 71 years old and retired twice over, it’s okay to eat when you’re hungry and sleep when you’re tired. You’ve earned that relaxed schedule. It is shortly after 11:00 PM on the night of June 27, 2007 in Plantation, Florida. The Marine has gone out for an evening stroll and a little light shopping, topped off with a stop at a Subway sandwich shop for a bite to eat.
He has been licensed to carry a concealed weapon in the state of Florida since September of 1990. His years with the USMC have left him comfortable and confident with the 1911 pistol. In a cheap, nameless cloth holster toward the middle of his back lies a concealed subcompact Para-Ordnance LDA Carry pistol, caliber .45 ACP, fully loaded with six rounds in its short-frame magazine and a seventh in its firing chamber. A spare magazine is in a pouch attached to the holster. The double action only pistol is “on-safe.” In his pocket is a tiny backup gun, a five-shot Freedom Arms miniature single action revolver, chambered for .22 Long Rifle and marketed as a “mini-derringer.” The .45 is concealed by an un-tucked shirt.
It is a quiet evening, and the Marine is the last customer in the Subway shop. He rises from the table and strides to the waste disposal area to dump the wrappings of the sandwich he has just finished. He’s in good shape: he doesn’t smoke or drink, and works out daily. And suddenly, he is no longer the only “customer.”
The position he has taken to throw away the wrappings has put his back to the door, and he has not seen the two men enter. When he turns to leave, they are simply there.​

They are identically disguised. They are wearing black bandannas,
pulled up as masks over their faces, and each wears a ball cap pulled down low over the eyes. Each is wearing heavy-framed dark sunglasses. Both of the men are wearing long sleeved garments,
and gloves. And each is holding a weapon.
They announce a stickup. Common sense and military training and experience combine to tell the Marine these men have the upper hand at the moment. Slowly, calmly, he raises his hands high enough for the robbers to believe he is complying. On the other side of the counter, the store manager is complying, too.
The Marine gives up his wallet, with several hundred dollars inside. He
doesn’t think it’s worth killing anyone over, let alone dying for.
But that’s not enough. The robbers order him into the back of the shop, into a rest room.
And that changes everything.​

Drawing The Line​

Every responsible person who carries a gun has given some thought to
how and when they would use it. The Marine is no exception. He has given
up his money, but long beforehand, he has determined he will not be taken
at gunpoint into the back of a robbery​

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premises and proned-out on the floor. He knows that too many times, victims have not gotten up from there.
And now, the nearest robber orders him onto the floor.​

Slowly, the Marine pretends to obey. He turns his right side slightly away, so his torso will block the gunman’s view of his hand. He pretends to bend down,​

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as if to lower himself to the floor.​

And, suddenly, he makes his move.​

The Clock Starts​

The Para-Ordnance clears the holster in a “cavalry draw” and swings
up. In a movement so long practiced he is unaware he is performing it, the
Marine’s thumb wipes the pistol’s safety​

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lever down into the “fire” position as his finger goes to the trigger. The small area erupts into gunfire.​

A robber jerks back away from him. The man has been hit three times, once in the leg and once in the center mass area of the torso and once in the head, and he staggers rearward. His back slams into the wall, his arms dropping. He has not yet fallen, the Marine per​

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ceives this first antagonist is out of the fight, and he turns his attention to the second threat. This one is standing in the narrow hallway outside the bathroom. He is
holding something in each hand, and the Marine fires so fast it’s almost as if both robbers had been caught in the same uninterrupted stream of bullets. The second thug turns, running toward the front door. The Marine realizes there’s a bullet hole in that door now … and the slide on his pistol has locked back empty. The first robber has collapsed.​

He reflexively reaches for the spare​

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magazine, but it has slipped down
inside his jeans. He can’t get hold of it. He has to take a moment to reach
down and unbuckle his belt before he can grasp the second magazine.
As this is happening, he sees the running second man hit the door full tilt, so hard he loses his balance and falls onto the sidewalk. The man has shown no indication of being hit yet.
The Marine reloads now, with a quick and practiced movement once the​

magazine is in hand. By the time the slide comes back forward, chambering
a fresh round, the second armed robber has disappeared.
It’s over.​

Aftermath​

The first armed robbery suspect was identified as Dionicio Arrindell, age 22,​

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of North Lauderdale. He did not survive.
A loaded shotgun was found in the getaway car he and his accomplice had
parked outside. The second was identified as Frederick Gadson, age 21, of Fort Lauderdale. A police manhunt ended when a K-9 found him almost 300 yards from the Subway shop, collapsed near a bank.
He had sustained a gunshot wound to the thorax from the Marine’s weapon, striking some 2" above the heart.
Gadson was charged with armed robbery, and since his accomplice had died during a felony, Gadson was committing, he was also charged with murder. He is still awaiting trial at this writing.
The tone of the criminal justice system’s response to the double shooting​

was set by one of the first responding​

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police supervisors.
“Damn!” he said to the Marine. “You got them both!”​

One police spokesperson described the Marine’s response as “textbook.”​

Another, Detective Robert Rettig, told reporters, “He feared for his life, and if he’s in fear for his life, then he has a right to defend himself, even if it means severe bodily injury or death.”

It was clear to any impartial observer the Marine had righteously acted to
save not only his own life, but that of the store manager as well. The manager’s testimony supported his account of the incident, and so did the Subway’s security video cameras.
No charges were filed against the Marine. To the best of my knowledge​

at this time, no lawsuit has been filed​

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against him either. The general public’s reaction was overwhelmingly positive.
South Floridians are tired of violent crime. It quickly came out the men​

the Marine had shot both had criminal pasts, and only their friends and relatives seemed to have a problem with the outcome, with some telling reporters it was “murder” and they couldn’t believe someone could legally “just shoot down” Arrindell and Gadson. The everpopular phrase, “They were just turning their lives around” was heard repeatedly​

from those quarters.

The Marine did not want publicity. He had done what he’d had to do. He
turned down countless print and elec​

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tronic media requests for interviews.
The article you are reading is the first one in which he has told his own story.​

From Behind The Gun​

It is widely perceived as conventional wisdom among cops and others
that when the criminals herd you from the crime scene itself to a secondary​

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scene, it’s a big red flag indicating an intent to murder the victims/witnesses.
This is exactly what went through the Marine’s mind, and what prompted him to act when he was herded into the rest room, and then ordered to the floor into what is reasonably construable as an
execution position.
There are, said the Marine in his exclusive explanation for Handgunner​

readers, armed robberies occurring regularly in South Florida “where the
robber shoots the victims between 10- and 20-percent of the time even if
they surrender the money — as I did, without resistance.” Adds the Marine, “Whether it be the six ladies in the Lane Bryant store or thousands of other cases across the country, when the robbers have all the money from the customer and the business and they don’t leave,​

but rather take you to the back room and tell you ‘lie down,’ the chances of then being shot are very high.” After stories like this hit the news
media, “chair-borne commandoes” come out of the woodwork to pompously theorize how​

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they could have handled the situation better. Some such critics have suggested that he should have fired once at each opponent before re-engaging either of them. The problem with criticizing someone’s tactics based on a sterile newspaper account, is the account doesn’t give the real-world details that determine what
tactic is appropriate for what scenario.
It appears the Marine couldn’t have shot the second assailant after firing one shot at the first, because that first armed robber was still his primary threat when the Marine fired the second shot, and the second perpetrator was not yet in his line of fire.
The Marine explains, “The first man had staggered back against the wall but hadn’t yet fallen so I could just see over his shoulder the face and shoulders of the second robber. I saw he had something
in each hand. My firing was continuous without pause.”
News accounts never discussed shooting technique. Long familiar
with the 1911, the Marine was able to bring up his Para LDA and fire the​

shots ending the encounter in a smooth and fluid movement born of years of training. He observes, “I carried with the safety on. I have no recollection of​

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releasing the safety. I started firing.”​

He fired one-handed, and scored kill-zone hits with almost half his shots
against two men, neutralizing both. His gun never came up to line of sight. Few of us could criticize that performance.
But the Marine himself can.​

Criticism​

The most valid criticism is often the self-criticism of the individual involved. In this case, we are talking about a man
who spent both his careers with human lives constantly in his hands, in situations where the slightest error on his part could extinguish those lives, as well as his own. It was so when he piloted
Marine One, the Presidential helicopter, for John Fitzgerald Kennedy and for Lyndon Baines Johnson. It was true when he was the pilot responsible for hundreds of passengers at a time aboard Pan American Airways and Delta Airlines jetliners. Such men tend to be perfectionists,
and ruthlessly self-critical.
Here is what he tells us about his own performance that night, as he sees it.
“I am not happy with my accuracy.​

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There was no time to take up a modified Weaver stance or anything close to it. The best way I could describe it is the reaction you have when you walk into a spider web and think the spider is on you. You reflexively brush, urgently or​

even frantically, to get it off,” the retired Marine Major explains.​

Perfect technique, he discovered, is not always possible in a gunfight. He
remembers, “I was firing one handed as​

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I emerged from the bathroom — we’re talking seconds or fractions thereof — the last shots were fired to my right with body facing the opposite hallway wall at about a three-quarters angle.”​

He discovered what a chilling experience it can be to run out of ammunition when you realize half of your armed opponents still appear to be​

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capable of killing you. As his fight-forlife was going on, he was acutely aware armed robbers commonly leave lookouts and getaway car drivers outside, who can move in and serve as reinforcements when gunfire alerts them to the fact the primary armed robbery team has run into resistance. In retrospect, the Marine determined it might be time for a more efficient spare magazine pouch, and to drill more on transitioning to a
backup gun.
He says, “The (second) robber hit the front door so hard he lost his balance and fell onto the sidewalk. He was still only a few feet away and I was VERY CONCERNED when I observed my slide was back. I was afraid he
would fire at me from the sidewalk and/or gang-banger associates would
come around the corner to attack me.
My spare magazine pouch had slipped below my belt line and I had to unbuckle my jeans to get at it.” The emphasis above is his.​

Adds the Marine, “I completely forgot about the stainless steel .22 LR
derringer by Freedom Arms, which was my backup. It’s not much, but an earlier test had shown that the bullet would​

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penetrate three-quarters of a thick Miami phone book.”
Many on the Internet gun boards pored over the fact that while the first​

armed robber was swiftly neutralized by​

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a quick pair of solidly-placed .45 hits, the second had taken a .45 slug through the torso and run a distance reported as almost 300 yards before collapsing.
There was much discussion of whether the .45 ACP cartridge was over-rated, or whether any handgun round was powerful enough to effect a one-shot stop on a dangerous criminal.
The Marine explains, “The second robber was hit in the chest, 2" above the heart. I was using Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket. I didn’t think I had hit him because he didn’t go down. When I learned later he had been hit and where, I was very surprised that an individual who was probably about 5' 10" tall and 170 pounds didn’t go down when hit in
the chest with a .45.”
With the Para Carry LDA still in evidence until the trial of the second
armed robber is over, the Marine is now carrying a single action Para-Ordnance Hawg .45, comforted by its ten-plus-one cartridge capacity.​

Lessons​

Wounded suspect Gadson’s grandmother said of the Marine, when she
talked to reporters, “He shouldn’t have taken the law in his hands.”
Does anyone think that when everything logical screams,​

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you are about to be execution-murdered by criminals, the law should be left in the criminals’ hands?
The criminal justice system knew exactly what was what. That’s why the
police not only did not bring charges after investigating the shooting, but​

clearly​

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endorsed the Marine’s actions. In a world where certain attorneys
chase ambulances and those who love people who do bad things want
revenge for those people’s deaths and injuries, I strongly suspect there were discussions about bringing civil suits.
I also strongly suspect any attorney with an IQ above room temperature
would have realized the chances of winning such a lawsuit against the
Marine, under the circumstances that provably took place, would have been poor indeed.​

Even the most righteous justifiable​

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uses of deadly force — and this incident certainly qualifies as such — will draw criticism. Understand the criticism comes from those with no standing to criticize. If you know in your heart what you did was something you had to do, it will be easier to deal with.
The Marine knows that he did what he had to do. He mentions the Lane Bryant murders, which took place in Chicago in early 2008, well after his own shooting.
A lone gunman herded six women into a back room of a clothing store, ordered them to the floor, and shot them all execution-
style. Only one of his intended victims survived. The mass-murderer is
still at large.
Can anyone doubt if the Marine, or someone like him, had been present
at that Lane Bryant store, the outcome might have been much different — and much better?
The justice system was correct in its conclusion. The Marine did the right
thing. We at American Handgunner salute him — and thank him for sharing
his story, exclusively, with our readers.

Massad Ayoob
Ameican Handgunner
July/August 2009​

 

[kingnereli]

I agree that a unique situation like this is NOT common. IMHO, the marines choice of CC instead of OC, resulted in him being able to gain control of the situation at the moment of his choosing. OC would have forced the issue and resulted in immediate hostilities. The BG's came in ready to shoot and ready to kill.

Maybe, maybe not.

I'll post up the Ayoob file, downloading now.

To me there are different degrees of both types of carry, from deep concealment to blatant open carry. The type of carry should be chosen based on the expected venue and situation you are going to find yourself.

Whether you want to wear a .50AE Desert Eagle on your hip or a Lorcin .25 duct taped to your perineum,

Are you speaking from experience?

we should all be in support of carrying, period. We are lucky in our state to be able to have the ability to choose.
Absolutely

+1

 

[jsharmon7]

Another scenario is they would have seen that the guy had a gun on his hip and moved on to the next easy target.

This seems (to me) to be the biggest pro-OC justification but I just don't know if it's always true. If you look at the story being referenced, or the now infamous Oklahoma pharmacy shooting, then you will see that OC would not have deterred the bad guys. I think the reason there is no consensus in the OC vs. CC debate is because there is no right or wrong answer. If it's a crime of opportunity such as you walking down the street at night then OC could very well deter them. If it's a preplanned crime like some of these business robberies then OC would not deter them. If they come in the door with pistols out and masks donned then I doubt they're going to see the gun and change their minds; they're past the point of no return. Had the gentleman in this story been OC'ing then MAYBE they would have shot him or at least disarmed him. There is no way to know what situation you may end up in so as someone else said, whether it's OC or CC just be sure you're carrying your firearm.

 

[kingnereli]

This seems (to me) to be the biggest pro-OC justification but I just don't know if it's always true. If you look at the story being referenced, or the now infamous Oklahoma pharmacy shooting, then you will see that OC would not have deterred the bad guys. I think the reason there is no consensus in the OC vs. CC debate is because there is no right or wrong answer. If it's a crime of opportunity such as you walking down the street at night then OC could very well deter them. If it's a preplanned crime like some of these business robberies then OC would not deter them. If they come in the door with pistols out and masks donned then I doubt they're going to see the gun and change their minds; they're past the point of no return. Had the gentleman in this story been OC'ing then MAYBE they would have shot him or at least disarmed him. There is no way to know what situation you may end up in so as someone else said, whether it's OC or CC just be sure you're carrying your firearm.

Maybe so, but I value any level of deterrence over surprise. My OC experiences are relevant to this discussion. I OC 90+% of the time. I have visited family and friends on several occasions where they didn't know I carry. Sometimes it would take up to an hour before the even realize that I have a full size 1911 hanging on my hip in full view. I would say it is much more likely that a criminal charging in a place to rob it all pumped up on adrenaline wouldn't immediately notice a firearm. How much time this would buy I don't know but it would be some. I would just caution speaking in terms of absolutes when all the variables can't be accounted for. I agree there is no right answer and both methods are equally valid. I'm not even sure that a hypothetical situation or example could really invalidate either method. With OC you have deterrence and speed. With CC you have surprise and possibly the option to do nothing.

You'll also see that OC isn't just a tactical decision. OC is a statement not for attention, but to say that guns are ok and that carrying guns for protection is ok. Others may choose to fight this battle in other venues, but for OCers it has to at least come into the realm of consideration. I'm just not sure why this topic is so divisive. Again, absolutes aren't helpful. I can imagine scenarios where either carry method could be an advantage. I can't imagine one where not carrying is advantageous.

 

[Markedup]

"Does the thought of you being the bad guy's victim ever intrude on the above hypothetical? Would that thought make you wish they had known you were armed and picked an easier target"

I know this is a rational for having an armed security officer
close to the entrance of a business.

"Or is there a strong desire to be ready that one day, in that perfect chain of events... to ambush the negligent bad guy."

I think, for me, this thought would be evil.
It is tantamount to setting a man trap.

Thanks

Mark

 

[jsharmon7]

"Does the thought of you being the bad guy's victim ever intrude on the above hypothetical? Would that thought make you wish they had known you were armed and picked an easier target"

I know this is a rational for having an armed security officer
close to the entrance of a business.

"Or is there a strong desire to be ready that one day, in that perfect chain of events... to ambush the negligent bad guy."

I think, for me, this thought would be evil.
It is tantamount to setting a man trap.

Thanks

Mark

I understand the point you're making but there is a big difference between an armed and uniformed security officer and a regular Joe visiting a place of business. It would most likely be known to the bad guy that they have security at the business but not that an armed customer was present. If they don't know about an armed security guard then who knows how that one will turn out; could devolve into a shootout.

As far as setting a "man trap," I definitely don't agree with that. We're talking about an everyday citizen protecting their life or the life of another, not going out to bad parts of town with a concealed weapon trying to bait someone into attacking you. That's akin to saying that anyone that CC's shouldn't be allowed to use the weapon because it's not fair to the bad guy.

I just think that you should carry however is most comfortable for you because neither option is necessarily superior to the other. Both styles have pros and cons and you have no idea what situation could transpire.

As a side note, I'm sort of confused (read OP) as to why pro-OC people assume that those who carry CC are hoping to pull off some heroic, surprise take-down of a bad guy like in the movies. I don't carry my weapon concealed so that I can pull it out at the last second, engage the bad guy in a diving/rolling/flipping slow motion shootout, and then finish with a cliched one-liner while the grateful masses chant my name.

 

[ATM]

As a side note, I'm sort of confused (read OP) as to why pro-OC people assume that those who carry CC are hoping to pull off some heroic, surprise take-down of a bad guy like in the movies.

I was merely attempting to speculate on the motivation behind the common fixation with surprise. The most common support (when any has been given) usually generates the scenario described as the basis for the choice, as if it actually happened most frequently. I didn't suspect anyone would admit to this being an underlying motivator but I still wonder.

Still waiting to hear the true source of compunction that cause some to throw their CC defense into any thread that even casually mentions OC.

 

[cce1302]

Still waiting to hear the true source of compunction that cause some to throw their CC defense into any thread that even casually mentions OC.

It's funny that it hasn't really shown up here, where we ask for it, but it shows up where we don't. I wonder if we could get the mods to move those posts over here when they pop up.
Mods?

 

[Feign]

Still waiting to hear the true source of compunction that cause some to throw their CC defense into any thread that even casually mentions OC.

It's always "tactical advantage." Didn't you know? C'mon...

Post deletes and warnings would be a great way to get the songbirds to shut up about CC > OC.

 

[cce1302]

Maybe we could just link to this thread every time it comes up.

 

[cce1302]

Addressed from another thread:

Just conceal it. I'm not a proponent of OC anyway. I have always wanted to be underestimated, then surprise 'em.

Here's that "I'd rather be attacked and then surprise the bad guy than be avoided because I look prepared" that we were looking for.

 

[Beau]

Addressed from another thread:

Here's that "I'd rather be attacked and then surprise the bad guy than be avoided because I look prepared" that we were looking for.

I still don't understand the "Element of Surprise" idea. As I've said before. I've timed myself on my draw CC and OC. Guess which is faster. On the CC I simply just fully covered my firearm with my t-shirt. One simple garment to go through still slows you down. Now add to the equation that in a defensive situation your adrenaline will up. You'll be more than a little shaky making it tougher to pull from concealment.

Now suppose your standing in a gas station, store , bank or wherever. Bad guy comes in orders everyone to the ground. Do CCer's think BG will not notice someone trying to dig through their clothes for something? Maybe you are in the back of the store. While you may be able to pull from concealment without being noticed OC would definitely make your draw faster.

As with any type of carry. Practice is key. Unload your weapon and practice drawing and getting your sight picture for at least a half hour once a week. Practice in various positions. Hands up, laying on the ground, sitting etc..

 

[rcflyer]

Personally I don't f*cking care how anyone actually carries. I just wish people would stop with the if you do it that way you will die BS.

If I wanted to hear BS I would listen to the government...

Right on. I OC all the time. I also CC occasionally. If a BG and I are sharing the same location and he's thinking of doing something illegal he better be a better shot than me. I am willing to take that chance versus being a victim.

 

[mattfoley]

As was posted in another thread, I was recently approached by a local LEO while OC'ing around the neighborhood on a walk with my family. I produced my LTCH, he said I was legal, but said I was going to "attract attention" carrying openly (I'll give him that sometimes; most times people don't even notice) and that I was "defeating the purpose" of carrying a weapon by carrying like I was.

Now maybe I need to go into some more detail. It was hot that day. Really hot. I was in shorts and a t-shirt. I carry an XD. My common concealment carry is on my ankle in a fobus holster. It used to feel heavy on the ankle, now I'm used to it. I was wearing shorts so that cuts out the ankle carry. I can also carry with a Supertuck. But its not all that comfortable to me and it retains a lot of heat. I chose to put on my Serpa lvl 2 and go with it. It is the coolest, most comfortable way to carry for me and it offers the quickest draw and it offers the most retention/stability.

Now how was I "defeating the purpose of carrying" by carrying openly? The LEO told me to cover it with a jacket or overshirt (the reason I was in a t-shirt was because it was hot, and we don't have air conditioning; I usually have a plaid pocket shirt over it, tucked in). Doing what he suggested would have made it not worth carrying at all (now THAT defeats the purpose).

All this tactical advantage talk of CC only is just that. Talk. I don't know if I believe this either, but I've heard that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If everyone that carried OC'd, maybe we wouldn't ever need that 'tactical advantage of surprise.' Get my drift?

Now I know when CC is prudent and I will do it then. But when I'm going for a walk around the block? Do I really need to spend the time to get my CC holster adjusted, my shirt properly tucked, deal with the extra heat, and all that jazz? Or can I just slip my paddle on and go?

I thought that force protection and deterence was part of what LEO's where involved in. Why can't this work with the rest of us?