Common OC/CC threadjack

[j706]

Wow! I kinda hate coming on to a new site and voicing my opinion but... Open carry IMO is silly. It defeats the purpose. If carrying open is done to command respect..well someone has some issues. If you chose to carry that way,be prepared to be the first target,be prepared to be checked out, be prepared to be jacked with.

I think it is just plain weird. Not with standing shop owners ect.,I think of it more as showboating as a general rule. If you carry, keep the thing concealed. For those that disagree you might want to take a good hard look at Indiana's intimidation laws. (35-45-2-1) It HAS been successfully used, under the right circumstances, for people carrying open combined with other factors. Even in the event of your local PO's office dropping the charge, an arrest could still be justified with the right PC. So forget about the "I would just sue the officer stuff". Just something to consider people.

To the cowboys out there,flame away, but it is what it is. Peace!

 

[JosephR]

Again, I still want to hear from one person on this forum who actually has had to draw their gun, not a story someone heard. Personally I do not know anyone.

There's an old saying: If you've carried a gun for many years and have never drawn it, you did the right thing....stay alert, watch your back and don't do anything too stupid. (You may also want to add a little LUCK to that list)

I drew my gun while inside my car while some guy with a crazy accent climbed through my passenger window. He was leaning over my friend yelling at him due to road rage (we wouldn't turn on red).

This fella ignored repeated shouts from me of "get the F out of my car" and finally my hand went on the gun and then two more times I shouted the same thing, each time the gun came out further (first halfway, second all the way, still pointed down.)

He finally left/fell off when the light changed and I sped away.

Had he seen my gun he may have not entered the car but he would not have stopped his tirade.

This isn't really an OC/CC debate example but I did draw my pistol and I know what it's like to be in a situation where you are thinking about drawing and then finally draw to de-escalate a situation.

I could have shot him had he reached into a pocket. A man that crazy and wild diving into a car window is most likely armoed with something. I had to assume he wasn't carrying nothing but a rabbit's foot or something. Had he reached into a pocket at that point I could only assume it would have been for a knife or gun, nothing else will do him any good once he saw my pistol. I would have been in the right to shoot him had he pulled a knife or gun, or even motioned as if he was. We were all so close there would be no time to watch to see if a knife or gun came out. I think the simple motion would have been enough so I was prepared to do what I would have had to.

Glad the light turned green and he got road rash.

 

[JosephR]

I never dismissed your reason to have a gun or carry a gun or a knife or a baseball bat. All I said is the best option is to stay uninvolved if at all possible. If a couple of guys are robbing the 7-11 and you are behind them and pull a gun and shoot them you will probably get sued and maybe go to jail yourself. You will most likely have to spend thousands of dollars in lawyer fees. If you yelled out for them to drop their gun they would probably turn around as shoot you as you will most likely hesitate, they probably wouldn't.

Most people, including me would be scared in that situation and if you say you wouldn't be I find that hard to believe. Cops are constantly trained for these types of situations and have the law on their side, the low life bad guys don't care or are on drugs and the average Joe is at a disavantage in a situation like this. You only act when it is life or death to you or someone else, not to save the storeowner's money.

UM, I'd be prepared to shoot as I yelled for them to drop their guns. No doubt about it. I wouldn't yell until I was ready.

And, police are trained but not to draw and shoot in stressful situations. They are trained to hit COM on a target 7 yards away and sometimes 50 feet or 25 yards. That's not the same thing as me, I can tell you that.

Also, many police aren't interested in their pistols. It's a tool for work and they don't care much about it other than using it to qualify when they have to.

 

[public servant]

Wow! I kinda hate coming on to a new site and voicing my opinion but... Open carry IMO is silly. It defeats the purpose. If carrying open is done to command respect..well someone has some issues. If you chose to carry that way,be prepared to be the first target,be prepared to be checked out, be prepared to be jacked with.

I think it is just plain weird. Not with standing shop owners ect.,I think of it more as showboating as a general rule. If you carry, keep the thing concealed. For those that disagree you might want to take a good hard look at Indiana's intimidation laws. (35-45-2-1) It HAS been successfully used, under the right circumstances, for people carrying open combined with other factors. Even in the event of your local PO's office dropping the charge, an arrest could still be justified with the right PC. So forget about the "I would just sue the officer stuff". Just something to consider people.

To the cowboys out there,flame away, but it is what it is. Peace!

ruh roh...

 

[Joe Williams]

Wow! I kinda hate coming on to a new site and voicing my opinion but... Open carry IMO is silly. It defeats the purpose.

What purpose?

If carrying open is done to command respect..well someone has some issues. If you chose to carry that way,be prepared to be the first target,be prepared to be checked out, be prepared to be jacked with.

The only people I've ever seen claim that OC has anything to do with "commanding respect" is the CC only crowd. Kind of makes me wonder if they suffer from the same issues with projection as the anti-gunners they are closely related to do. As for "targeted first," I think you are correct. It is a possibility, and is why I CC more often than not. Still, can you provide any actual incidents where this has happend to a civilian? Any? Just one? Checked out? Yep, it would be unrealistic not to expect people to notice. As for being jacked with? I'm prepared for the possibility. Not prepared to tolerate it, though.

I think it is just plain weird. Not with standing shop owners ect.,I think of it more as showboating as a general rule.

If you seriously think of it only as showboating, then you have clearly made up your mind without actually studying the issue. It's one thing to decide that CC only is best for you personally after having studied the pros and cons, but this sentence along with your first couple make clear that you have not engaged in such study. You have made up your mind, and closed it.

If you carry, keep the thing concealed

.

But that would defeat the purposes. If you are actually interested in facts, you'll now ask what those purposes are. If you are merely engaged in repeating anti-gun rights propaganda, you will not.

For those that disagree you might want to take a good hard look at Indiana's intimidation laws. (35-45-2-1) It HAS been successfully used, under the right circumstances, for people carrying open combined with other factors.

This is misleading, to be kind. One cannot be legally arrested for simply open carrying. If one engages in illegal acts, though, you can be. Your claim that OC is grounds for arrest is false, and thuggish.

Even in the event of your local PO's office dropping the charge, an arrest could still be justified with the right PC. So forget about the "I would just sue the officer stuff". Just something to consider people.

If I am arrested or detained simply for OC'ing, I will pursue civil and criminal complaints in federal court, as has been done successfully by others before me. I will also pursue those who made false claims to the police if I can get such names. Just something to consider for those of you anti-gunners that might consider calling the cops and falsely claiming I am committing an illegal act. Winning or losing the case is irrelevant to me. I'll make you spend a frigging fortune defending yourself.

To the cowboys out there,flame away, but it is what it is. Peace!

Yes, it is what is is. The same kind of anti-gun nonsense we heard from Fudds when the assault rifle bans were being talked about. "Who needs one of those anyway" and similar horsecrap.

 

[JosephR]

As was posted in another thread, I was recently approached by a local LEO while OC'ing around the neighborhood on a walk with my family. I produced my LTCH, he said I was legal, but said I was going to "attract attention" carrying openly (I'll give him that sometimes; most times people don't even notice) and that I was "defeating the purpose" of carrying a weapon by carrying like I was.

Now maybe I need to go into some more detail. It was hot that day. Really hot. I was in shorts and a t-shirt. I carry an XD. My common concealment carry is on my ankle in a fobus holster. It used to feel heavy on the ankle, now I'm used to it. I was wearing shorts so that cuts out the ankle carry. I can also carry with a Supertuck. But its not all that comfortable to me and it retains a lot of heat. I chose to put on my Serpa lvl 2 and go with it. It is the coolest, most comfortable way to carry for me and it offers the quickest draw and it offers the most retention/stability.

Now how was I "defeating the purpose of carrying" by carrying openly? The LEO told me to cover it with a jacket or overshirt (the reason I was in a t-shirt was because it was hot, and we don't have air conditioning; I usually have a plaid pocket shirt over it, tucked in). Doing what he suggested would have made it not worth carrying at all (now THAT defeats the purpose).

All this tactical advantage talk of CC only is just that. Talk. I don't know if I believe this either, but I've heard that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If everyone that carried OC'd, maybe we wouldn't ever need that 'tactical advantage of surprise.' Get my drift?

Now I know when CC is prudent and I will do it then. But when I'm going for a walk around the block? Do I really need to spend the time to get my CC holster adjusted, my shirt properly tucked, deal with the extra heat, and all that jazz? Or can I just slip my paddle on and go?

I thought that force protection and deterence was part of what LEO's where involved in. Why can't this work with the rest of us?

Who says the OC IS an ounce of prevention? Most are saying it's a bullseye. And you say it's not worth carrying a gun if you are hot? are you serious?

 

[Joe Williams]

Who says the OC IS an ounce of prevention? Most are saying it's a bullseye. And you say it's not worth carrying a gun if you are hot? are you serious?

Most WHO is saying it's a bullseye? Not criminals. Studies with them show they say they almost always go elsewhere if they believe there is an armed citizen present.

 

[JosephR]

Your retort doesn't work. That's describing a situation where a criminal thinks "which store should I rob, A or B?" and he knows that one or the other has armed citizens inside because he's seen them OC or walk into the place. He still has the choice to go elsewhere.

BUT when the two bruthas bang down the door of a local gas station and they see you with a gun on your hip AFTER they gain entry, you WILL be the first shot as they've already made up their minds they're going in and got the adrenaline flowing. The robbery is a done deal at that point and you are the first to go!

If CC'ing, you can cower like a ***** and cry until they turn away laughing. maybe rob and leave or maybe start shooting. Either way, you have an option and aren't taken by surprise.

 

[Joe Williams]

BUT when the two bruthas bang down the door of a local gas station and they see you with a gun on your hip AFTER they gain entry, you WILL be the first shot as they've already made up their minds they're going in and got the adrenaline flowing. The robbery is a done deal at that point and you are the first to go!

snip.

Prove it. Provide us some examples of that happening.

It can be proven that armed citizens have deterred crimes. Can you prove they have been targeted and victimized because they were open carrying?

 

[JosephR]

it's been proven that they have or you just believe it has? show me.

 

[mattfoley]

Who says the OC IS an ounce of prevention? Most are saying it's a bullseye. And you say it's not worth carrying a gun if you are hot? are you serious?

Most say its a bullseye yes. I don't know that I believe it. BG's typically don't have the situational awareness to notice things like that. Tunnel vision is powerful stuff. And if you're intent on robbing the place, I imagine you have tunnel vision on people like security guards and such. Not the OC'ing public he didnt factor in. And who is to say that said BG if he does spot your weapon OC'd, doesnt move on to softer targets. I would say that is just as likely as the bullseye argument.

As for the not carrying a gun if I was hot; no, I'd still carry someway; its just a lot nicer to not be sopping wet under my holster when I could just OC and be comfortable.

My biggest argument for OC is plain and simple comfort. No CC holster I have ever used is a comfortable as OC. CC holsters always cut into me; maybe I just have weird body dimensions or something. Not to mention I always tuck my shirts in. Untucked shirts and me just don't get along. Maybe thats why CC doesnt work for me quite so well.

I just wish the attitudes toward OC werent as hostile as they are both with LEO's and those civilians here. It seems to be that everyone is an idiot if they want to OC for any reason despite us having it legal in Indiana. I don't want OC being banned because of these attitudes or complacency over it.

 

[Joe Williams]

it's been proven that they have or you just believe it has? show me.

It's been proven in multiple studies, and you know or should know it. If you don't, you also haven't bothered to get the facts, and are just repeating BS.

Of course, what you are really doing is trying to avoid having it become blatantly obvious that your "bullseye" claim is utterly unsupported by any facts whatsoever.

So, you've claimed that OC'ing means you are a bullseye. Put up, or shut up.

 

[JosephR]

WTF? If your side has been proven so many times, just google and give me the best example you can find. YOU need to put up or shut up. YOU are expecting me to believe something you've simply HEARD over and over regardless of whether it's true or not. I'm as likely to believe you'll be the first target as you are to believe that criminals will leave a store they jump into like gangbusters just because one guy has a gun.

Criminals shoot ARMED UNIFORMED police all of the time without hesitation. They WILL shoot you just as easily.

Put up or STFU. Please.

 

[Joe Williams]

WTF? If your side has been proven so many times, just google and give me the best example you can find. YOU need to put up or shut up. YOU are expecting me to believe something you've simply HEARD over and over regardless of whether it's true or not. I'm as likely to believe you'll be the first target as you are to believe that criminals will leave a store they jump into like gangbusters just because one guy has a gun.

Criminals shoot ARMED UNIFORMED police all of the time without hesitation. They WILL shoot you just as easily.

Put up or STFU. Please.

IOW... you are now going to start kicking like a baby and cussing, because YOU CANNOT PROVE YOUR CLAIMS. Your statements of fact have been revealed to be a fraud, yet you insist on putting forth anti-gun arguments, regardless of the facts. You sneer at long established studies, outright lie about them, because you yourself have been proven to be WRONG.

Or, have you been able to prove your claim that OC'ers are somehow in more danger than CC'ers?

Frigging anti-gunners. Go back to the Brady Bunch website.

 

[JosephR]

Excuse me? Kicking and screaming?

Show me one of these studies. I actually googled YOUR side which you seem unable to do and could find NOTHING.

Damn Hypocrite. Put up or shut up. ...

 

[Joe Williams]

Excuse me? Kicking and screaming?

Show me one of these studies. I actually googled YOUR side which you seem unable to do and could find NOTHING.

Damn Hypocrite. Put up or shut up. ...

C'mon, Joseph. Just one incident of an OC'er being targeted because they were carrying openly. You've made the claim. Support it.

Just one.

And your claim that you cannot Google just one study showing that criminals avoid armed citizens? Fantastic, to be REALLY polite about it.

 

[JosephR]

Seriously? You've stated your opinion as HARD FACT proven by SCIENTIFIC STUDY. YOU are the one that needs to show proof.

I have simply stated my opinion.

YOU are the one passing your opinion off as some sort of scientific fact.

I'm waiting.

 

[Joe Williams]

I'm waiting.

You didn't state an opinion, you stated as fact that OC'ers are bullseyes.

One incident, Joseph. Support your claim.

 

[redneckmedic]

 

[JosephR]