CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: Public displays of religiosity

[churchmouse]

Only if they are old enough to know when the parents get together. Genetics is less important than actually caring for and loving the child.

This is true.
There are cases where it does not work well but even birth mom/dad can have a bad egg.

 

[PaulF]

I did not mean to intentionally mischaracterize you. Thanks for clarifying. Your theory in summary is: morality comes from within, not society and not God; it is a product of evolution.

Okay, we are on the same page then. I thought I was not adequately making my point. (I want you to understand where I'm coming from, even if we disagree wildly.)

Now, granted that you say morality "does not come from society," both your posts say that morality has to do with fitting into society. You spoke of "social creatures" seeking "desirable outcomes" and avoiding "dire consequences" -- all of which are the determined by the standards of a given society.

Morality is an entirely social construct, due entirely to social necessity. Without another human being with whom to interact, there is no need for basic rules of conduct...and absolutely no way to frame the concept in the first place. Harm another? What other? Only within a group of individuals can the idea of morality even begin to congeal. Good, bad, mine, ours, fair, just...these concepts turn to vapor in the absence of social interaction.

So, I am still wondering, what about (most) societies where oppression is a valued institution? Monarchies, dictatorships, tribal cultures, kingdoms and empires; on and on. Aren't people going to use their internal "morality" mechanism to fit into society? History shows that they will. Like you said, people want best outcomes for themselves. They will do what it takes to survive and thrive -- often to the detriment of innocent people.

I would argue that in your example the oppression is only "valued" by a few in the society, those who are willing to hold their own personal gain above all others in their society. I would say this is a very real problem in human civilization, and that only our most enlightened and advanced societies have even attempted to address these issues. I would point out...these same societies tend to be our most secular.

And if morality is an evolutionary trait, that leaves us with so many more questions. Clearly it is not a trait shared by everyone; why? Are immoral people less evolved? Evil even appears in siblings that share the same DNA and the same parents; why? Better yet, how can an entire society turn to evil, if evolution was a factor?

The obvious conclusion is that without God, morality is completely flexible, from culture to culture. Without God, morality has no universal standard. The Americans and the Nazis share the exact same level of "evolutionary" development.

There is a difference between knowing what is correct, and doing what is correct. I don't think adding or removing "God" from this part of the equation is meaningful or useful at all...this is a purely human failing. Can we agree on this tiny point?

And frankly, even if morality were as you described, it is still meaningless without God. We have no souls, we have no futures, we have absolutely no consequences for our earthly behavior. There is absolutely no logical reason to feel bad about doing anything "evil" aside from getting caught and punished by society. If you can get away with stealing and killing, why wouldn't you? After all, human life is not special; there are plenty more left if one dies; we are only animals anyway. Having a moral conscience is actually a hindrance to gathering earthly riches and pleasures. Morals are just figments of our imaginations.

So, absent your god, my life has no meaning? I disagree, but I would prefer to have that conversation on more intimate terms.

And I do murder and rape and steal as much I want to, which is not at all. Because of my moral compass that behavior is abhorrent to me. It is simply wrong, a manifestation of evil, and I reject all gods.

Just to be clear, the following are not misquoted, or an otherwise unfair representation of your position?

For a Christian, "good" means obeying God's commandments and acting in faith in ALL things.

ANY form of disobedience to God is evil.

Good is defined by God only.

In Numbers 31 the god of Abraham, your god, ordered Moses to clear the land of Midian for the Israelites to "keep". According to the Bible, Moses told his men to kill every man, woman and child in the land, except for the virgin girls, who could be kept and distributed to the soldiers as, well...do I really need to type it out?

So, according to you, under your system of morality, genocide and human trafficking are perfectly righteous...in the correct circumstances. Those circumstances being: somebody in your group says "I talked to God, it's cool!"

Under my system of morality, which you described as "meaningless", genocide and rape are always wrong, because they always remove the natural rights of one living being with a living mind to choose the better state of being for themselves.

I am not looking to offend. I am not looking to proselytise. There are competing views of morality to yours, and I humbly offer another one...however imperfect it may also be.

 

[Denny347]

I like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins...They are the Jim Baker and Oral Roberts of their Faith...Dawkin's kind of gets into the "Ancient Astronauts" Theory when talking about how life came to Earth and I have got to respect someone that has the guts to "go there" when explaining his Faith....


[video=youtube;SL7CCyuXAS4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL7CCyuXAS4[/video]

Here is a scientist with another view.....

All good moral philosophy is ... but the handmaid to religion.

— Sir Francis Bacon

In The Advancement of Learning, book 2, xxii, 14. In Francis Bacon and Basil Montagu, The Works of Francis Bacon (1825), 252.​

​

Umm, he was only hypothesizing when asked if Intelligent Design were true.

 

[Denny347]

And frankly, even if morality were as you described, it is still meaningless without God. We have no souls, we have no futures, we have absolutely no consequences for our earthly behavior. There is absolutely no logical reason to feel bad about doing anything "evil" aside from getting caught and punished by society. If you can get away with stealing and killing, why wouldn't you? After all, human life is not special; there are plenty more left if one dies; we are only animals anyway. Having a moral conscience is actually a hindrance to gathering earthly riches and pleasures. Morals are just figments of our imaginations.

Actually, it is quite liberating. Knowing that I only have once chance at life. Knowing that there is not "second start". Knowing that my victories AND defeats are my own. Life is precious BECAUSE it is so fleeting. I cannot stress that enough. So are you telling me that the ONLY reason you do not rape, steal, and murder is because someone is watching you? No way.

 

[warthog]

This is simply satan telling you that YOU are going to be a god because of him and this should make you PROUD. This is the very first sim, the sin of pride. You, just as I am, a sinner ad as such you will go to punishment rather than on to all the good God has in store for you UNLESS you take God's Grace, that of his Son who has paid your bill and washed you in His Blood.

Bt that's how I see it, and God, but since He isn't there you should be fine.

 

[steveh_131]

In Numbers 31 the god of Abraham, your god, ordered Moses to clear the land of Midian for the Israelites to "keep". According to the Bible, Moses told his men to kill every man, woman and child in the land, except for the virgin girls, who could be kept and distributed to the soldiers as, well...do I really need to type it out?

There is nothing in that passage to suggest that anyone was raped or used as a sex slave. Rape was expressly forbidden in Deuteronomy 22.

I'll let rambone respond to the rest of the points, as it was addressed to him. Just pointing out a glaring falsehood.

 

[steveh_131]

So are you telling me that the ONLY reason you do not rape, steal, and murder is because someone is watching you? No way.

All have God's law written on our hearts. This is why even the secular world attempts to maintain moral standards.

I don't think rambone is suggesting that all atheists behave this way. I think he is pointing out that your refusal to behave that way is irrational, in light of your worldview.

 

[Denny347]

All have God's law written on our hearts. This is why even the secular world attempts to maintain moral standards.

I don't think rambone is suggesting that all atheists behave this way. I think he is pointing out that your refusal to behave that way is irrational, in light of your worldview.

OR, man wrote what was in their hearts. Man behaved that way long before the Bible OR Christianity.

 

[steveh_131]

OR, man wrote what was in their hearts. Man behaved that way long before the Bible OR Christianity.

Those are the two options being currently discussed. I don't think it makes any real sense in terms of evolution. Sure, scientists can come up with any number of ways to rationalize it. It just doesn't add up, to me.

 

[Denny347]

 

[steveh_131]

And yet Hitchens, a member of our species (last I checked) is somehow above the rest of us Chimps?

 

[Denny347]

Those are the two options being currently discussed. I don't think it makes any real sense in terms of evolution. Sure, scientists can come up with any number of ways to rationalize it. It just doesn't add up, to me.

I understand, now you know how I feel, I understand science, religion doesn't make sense to me. I grew up Catholic, going to church every Sunday. I never liked it, felt something wasn't right. I tried and tried to believe, even had a Catholic wedding (it sure was beautiful) 15 years ago. But as hard as I tried, it just never worked for me. I cannot make you NOT believe any more than I can make myself BELIEVE. We are expressing our opinions here and that is about it. It is highly individualized, a decision that we each make every day we wake up. I did see a movie a couple of days ago, I Origins, brilliant and moving. Without spoiling it, I would be a believer if I was the scientist in the movie. Brilliant.

 

[Denny347]

And yet Hitchens, a member of our species (last I checked) is somehow above the rest of us Chimps?

Nah, after reading "Mortality" you get a sense of how he saw himself, he died while writing it.

 

[steveh_131]

I understand, now you know how I feel, I understand science, religion doesn't make sense to me.

One big difference. I understand science and God still makes sense to me.

I don't know if you intended it this way, but I reject any dichotomy between the two.

Nah, after reading "Mortality" you get a sense of how he saw himself, he died while writing it.

Well all I saw was one sentence. It sounded pretty condescending, but I may have misunderstood it.

 

[steveh_131]

I should add that he may be right about many of the religions that have existed. They paint a picture of divine beings with more in common with humans than really makes any sense.

The story of God and of Jesus defies everything about human nature and presents a picture of a God that we can barely comprehend, but that perfectly explains every part of the human experience.

Once I took the time to really read and understand it, I can't imagine a species one chromosome away from chimpanzees ever being able to fabricate such a thing.

 

[Denny347]

One big difference. I understand science and God still makes sense to me.

I don't know if you intended it this way, but I reject any dichotomy between the two.



Well all I saw was one sentence. It sounded pretty condescending, but I may have misunderstood it.

Yeah, without context, it does come off that way a bit. He is a brilliant writer, much of it was on historical figures. Atheism was really the least he wrote about, but it got talked about the most.

 

[Denny347]

I can't imagine a species one chromosome away from chimpanzees ever being able to fabricate such a thing.

Don't sell humans short, we are brilliant animals...and it is really like 9 chromosome

 

[steveh_131]

Yeah, without context, it does come off that way a bit. He is a brilliant writer, much of it was on historical figures. Atheism was really the least he wrote about, but it got talked about the most.

I've read some of his work and I saw him debate theists a few times. Crazy smart guy. I did enjoy hearing him speak, despite my disagreements.

Don't sell humans short, we are brilliant animals...and it is really like 9 chromosome

We are an intelligent species compared to the rest on the earth, sure, but not brilliant or unified enough to come up with a document such as the bible over the time period that it was written by the number of people who wrote it. You'd have to really dig in to understand what I'm talking about, but the way it ties itself together is beyond the brilliance of mankind. In my opinion.

 

[rambone]

Okay, we are on the same page then. I thought I was not adequately making my point. (I want you to understand where I'm coming from, even if we disagree wildly.)

+1. Same motivation here.

Morality is an entirely social construct, due entirely to social necessity. Without another human being with whom to interact, there is no need for basic rules of conduct...and absolutely no way to frame the concept in the first place. Harm another? What other? Only within a group of individuals can the idea of morality even begin to congeal. Good, bad, mine, ours, fair, just...these concepts turn to vapor in the absence of social interaction.

Ok, understood. That is another big difference between secular morality and Christian morality, which covers not just social behavior but also thought. God reads our minds. We are required to be moral all the time, not just around other people.

There is a difference between knowing what is correct, and doing what is correct. I don't think adding or removing "God" from this part of the equation is meaningful or useful at all...this is a purely human failing. Can we agree on this tiny point?

I can accept human failing as an answer, because it actually does align with the Bible. The Christian perspective is that people recognize sin because of God, and people choose sin nonetheless -- human failing. However, that's been a stable constant for all of recorded history, and there is no sign of humans evolving past their depraved nature.

So, absent your god, my life has no meaning? I disagree, but I would prefer to have that conversation on more intimate terms.

I'm not attempting to take this to a personal level. I'll speak for myself: The world seems like a depressing place without hope of an afterlife. People are born, work their butts off, and die. We turn to dust with the same significance of a chicken or a dog. All the toiling of our lives is forgotten and nobody really cares. What is the meaning of life? What earthly answer can satisfy that question?

Just to be clear, the following are not misquoted, or an otherwise unfair representation of your position?

That's all consistent with the Bible. Yes, the Bible is true, that is my position.

In Numbers 31 the god of Abraham, your god, ordered Moses to clear the land of Midian for the Israelites to "keep". According to the Bible, Moses told his men to kill every man, woman and child in the land, except for the virgin girls, who could be kept and distributed to the soldiers as, well...do I really need to type it out?

So, according to you, under your system of morality, genocide and human trafficking are perfectly righteous...in the correct circumstances. Those circumstances being: somebody in your group says "I talked to God, it's cool!"

Under my system of morality, which you described as "meaningless", genocide and rape are always wrong, because they always remove the natural rights of one living being with a living mind to choose the better state of being for themselves.

I am not looking to offend. I am not looking to proselytise. There are competing views of morality to yours, and I humbly offer another one...however imperfect it may also be.

If you are ready to take the Bible as literal truth, then lets read the whole thing, not cherry pick. Let's start here: God exists. Imagine with me, now, Paul. *Deep breath.* God really exists. OK. God exists... and He provided overwhelming evidence for his existence: ten predicted plagues; parting the Red Sea in front of 600,000 witnesses; feeding the nation in the desert for 40 years with manna; rescuing the Israelites from slavery using purely supernatural power. These things really happened. Wow!

The God that created the universe revealed Himself to mankind. We cannot even imagine how much power He has. It is clear, however, that He makes the rules. He says he punishes those who oppose Him. The Midianites opposed Him and he kept His promise of vengeance. The wrath of God was recorded and remembered for thousands of years. Take notice!

But today, we debate whether our earthly social philosophies are more moral than God Himself. As if the creator of the universe does not reserve the right to destroy his own creations! God doesn't violate people's rights -- He owns our souls! He executes justice however He decides. And, according to God, the earthly death of the sinful Midianites was just the beginning of the justice that awaits.

So are you telling me that the ONLY reason you do not rape, steal, and murder is because someone is watching you? No way.

I believe every person is capable of every form of evil, given the right background and circumstances. I have done shameful things, and both my regret and my commitment to change come from Christ.

 

[PaulF]

If you are ready to take the Bible as literal truth, then lets read the whole thing, not cherry pick. Let's start here: God exists. Imagine with me, now, Paul. *Deep breath.* God really exists. OK. God exists... and He provided overwhelming evidence for his existence: ten predicted plagues; parting the Red Sea in front of 600,000 witnesses; feeding the nation in the desert for 40 years with manna; rescuing the Israelites from slavery using purely supernatural power. These things really happened. Wow!

The God that created the universe revealed Himself to mankind. We cannot even imagine how much power He has. It is clear, however, that He makes the rules. He says he punishes those who oppose Him. The Midianites opposed Him and he kept His promise of vengeance. The wrath of God was recorded and remembered for thousands of years. Take notice!

But today, we debate whether our earthly social philosophies are more moral than God Himself. As if the creator of the universe does not reserve the right to destroy his own creations! God doesn't violate people's rights -- He owns our souls! He executes justice however He decides. And, according to God, the earthly death of the sinful Midianites was just the beginning of the justice that awaits.

I can't rep you again, so here's a stupid smiley guy.

That was an excellent post, and I think entirely consistent with your position.

I'm still an Atheist, though. And I didn't see you at the meeting, so I'm thinking you probably didn't change your mind either?

Internet.