I've read more than one article that asserts this is exactly what has happened. One article, I remember the words the catholic church has a homosexual problem in it priesthood. And not in a good way.
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CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...
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I've read more than one article that asserts this is exactly what has happened. One article, I remember the words the catholic church has a homosexual problem in it priesthood. And not in a good way.
I guess part of that devolves into what the "problem" is with homosexuality.
To Paul's point (I think), if a gay person knows they're gay and knows that acting on it is a sin, the vow of celibacy makes sense. It is another layer of "defense" to acting on that particular temptation. Of course, that vow is equally applicable to heterosexual members of the clergy.
If Catholicism has a more-than-expected number of homosexual clergy, but a small percentage of them act on it, then I'm confused about what the problem is. To be clear, we're not talking about the separate problem of pedophiles. (Which, I'm pretty sure there's a consensus here that the 2 things are not linked - gayness and pedo-ness.)
If the assertion is that the gay priests are all having secret gay orgies trying to hide them from God, I think that's absurd.
On the topic of the monsignor in the apartment, the stories appear ambiguous about whether the priest knew about or arranged the cocaine, etc. I'm confident he knew about the gayness, but lots of parties get out of control.
In the context of other rumors about debauchery in Rome among the priests, the monsignor may have known. I'm just saying the reporting isn't clear.
In looking at the circumstances that brought a Jesuit to the papacy, part of me thinks there was an expectation that he would fight against these things among the priests. I'm not sure if that's happening, but some of this might be an exercise in giving the problem-makers enough rope to hang themselves. Metaphorically.
To Paul's point (I think), if a gay person knows they're gay and knows that acting on it is a sin, the vow of celibacy makes sense. It is another layer of "defense" to acting on that particular temptation. Of course, that vow is equally applicable to heterosexual members of the clergy.
If Catholicism has a more-than-expected number of homosexual clergy, but a small percentage of them act on it, then I'm confused about what the problem is. To be clear, we're not talking about the separate problem of pedophiles. (Which, I'm pretty sure there's a consensus here that the 2 things are not linked - gayness and pedo-ness.)
If the assertion is that the gay priests are all having secret gay orgies trying to hide them from God, I think that's absurd.
On the topic of the monsignor in the apartment, the stories appear ambiguous about whether the priest knew about or arranged the cocaine, etc. I'm confident he knew about the gayness, but lots of parties get out of control.
In the context of other rumors about debauchery in Rome among the priests, the monsignor may have known. I'm just saying the reporting isn't clear.
In looking at the circumstances that brought a Jesuit to the papacy, part of me thinks there was an expectation that he would fight against these things among the priests. I'm not sure if that's happening, but some of this might be an exercise in giving the problem-makers enough rope to hang themselves. Metaphorically.
I read the entire letter that Father Jonathan linked to on Twitter this morning. After reading that, you have to wonder what did this pope know and when did he know it. Unless you discount Vigano entirely.
https://www.scribd.com/document/387...f-Ulpiana-Apostolic-Nuncio?mod=article_inline
https://www.scribd.com/document/387...f-Ulpiana-Apostolic-Nuncio?mod=article_inline
First, thank you for thank link - I hadn't seen it before. My eyes rejoiced in such good writing - at a purely selfish level. That level of prose is sorely lacking in the modern era.
Second, on the McCarrick issue, yes, this Pope and many other high-ranking officials, need to provide an explanation. Or rather, their silence is an explanation that is wholly unsatisfactory.
You keep drawing a bright red line here. No, I'm not sure I agree. Now...just because one is homosexual does that automatically mean that person is a pedophile? No. Of course not. But it seems like the most sizable of majorities indicate that of the priests whom are males are having or attempting to have sex with young males. That is where that bright red line disappears. It appears that an unfortunate number of homosexual priests are, by their actions, pedophiles. Is that the majority of priests? I hope not...and it probably isn't. Is that the majority of homosexual priests? Ehh....we don't know but it's a number greater than 0.
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consensus <> unanimity 
Without belaboring the point (one that I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on), if you take ALL priests, homosexual ones are a small proportion. If you then take those homosexual priests who act on it (breaking the vow of celibacy AND sinning), it is a smaller proportion of the whole. If you then take those homosexual priests who act on it as pedos (breaking the vow of celibacy AND sinning AND committing an egregious crime), it is then an even smaller proportion of the whole.
In the absence of something to quantify the issue, yours is a logical leap that I'm just not able to make.
ETA
In the re-reading, your "sizable of majorities" jumped out at me. Maybe you can explain that? I'm not sure what you're referencing. The majority of media-reported issues involve pedos, but that doesn't mean a majority of priests, or even a majority of gay priests are pedos.
Without belaboring the point (one that I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on), if you take ALL priests, homosexual ones are a small proportion. If you then take those homosexual priests who act on it (breaking the vow of celibacy AND sinning), it is a smaller proportion of the whole. If you then take those homosexual priests who act on it as pedos (breaking the vow of celibacy AND sinning AND committing an egregious crime), it is then an even smaller proportion of the whole.
In the absence of something to quantify the issue, yours is a logical leap that I'm just not able to make.
ETA
In the re-reading, your "sizable of majorities" jumped out at me. Maybe you can explain that? I'm not sure what you're referencing. The majority of media-reported issues involve pedos, but that doesn't mean a majority of priests, or even a majority of gay priests are pedos.
There would have to be a study targeting that specifically.
There are studies that look at the rates of homosexual vs heterosexual pedophilia. Now I am going off memory again so am not asserting this is absolutely TRUE. In general females are the targets of pedophiles. There was a study in the early 90s that suggested a higher rate of pedophilia among the homosexual population but I think other research has called that study into question.
Throwing priests into the equation would alter the dynamics of any study and I don't think such a study has been performed. Regardless, there is homosexuality in prison that is more due to availability, I would imagine. The same could be true here just as BBI alluded to earlier.
So while one may feel one way or the other, proving it either way would be difficult. I wouldn't want to cast a stone on this one without more proof either way.
Hidden behind the scenes here are some stories from Roman Catholic seminaries where homosexuality has been encouraged, but I don't know how accurate those things are.
There are studies that look at the rates of homosexual vs heterosexual pedophilia. Now I am going off memory again so am not asserting this is absolutely TRUE. In general females are the targets of pedophiles. There was a study in the early 90s that suggested a higher rate of pedophilia among the homosexual population but I think other research has called that study into question.
Throwing priests into the equation would alter the dynamics of any study and I don't think such a study has been performed. Regardless, there is homosexuality in prison that is more due to availability, I would imagine. The same could be true here just as BBI alluded to earlier.
So while one may feel one way or the other, proving it either way would be difficult. I wouldn't want to cast a stone on this one without more proof either way.
Hidden behind the scenes here are some stories from Roman Catholic seminaries where homosexuality has been encouraged, but I don't know how accurate those things are.
Right. I'm only commenting on what I'm reading about in relation to priests in the catholic church. In other denominations we probably hear more about adult men going after young women/girls. But in the case of the former, the stories about abuse seems to be mostly about adult men preying on younger males. The studies you are referring to would likely have major problems if we tried to apply their results on this unique population.
consensus <> unanimity
Without belaboring the point (one that I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on), if you take ALL priests, homosexual ones are a small proportion. If you then take those homosexual priests who act on it (breaking the vow of celibacy AND sinning), it is a smaller proportion of the whole. If you then take those homosexual priests who act on it as pedos (breaking the vow of celibacy AND sinning AND committing an egregious crime), it is then an even smaller proportion of the whole.
In the absence of something to quantify the issue, yours is a logical leap that I'm just not able to make.
ETA
In the re-reading, your "sizable of majorities" jumped out at me. Maybe you can explain that? I'm not sure what you're referencing. The majority of media-reported issues involve pedos, but that doesn't mean a majority of priests, or even a majority of gay priests are pedos.
The word "reports" or "stories" should have been in there. I do that a lot for some reason (leaving out words I intended to put in a sentence). I guess I can't type as fast as I think...which tells you how fast I type.
hahaha
No worries. I "think" phonetically, so I tend to type how things sound, not necessarily how they are spelled. As someone who writes ALOT, I've also developed the coordinate skill of watching for spellcheck highlights.
The media is going to publish what will bring eyeballs to screens. Gay pedo priests are a sure thing.
Stories about priests doing good things aren't usually printed.
consensus <> unanimity
Without belaboring the point (one that I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on), if you take ALL priests, homosexual ones are a small proportion. If you then take those homosexual priests who act on it (breaking the vow of celibacy AND sinning), it is a smaller proportion of the whole. If you then take those homosexual priests who act on it as pedos (breaking the vow of celibacy AND sinning AND committing an egregious crime), it is then an even smaller proportion of the whole.
In the absence of something to quantify the issue, yours is a logical leap that I'm just not able to make.
ETA
In the re-reading, your "sizable of majorities" jumped out at me. Maybe you can explain that? I'm not sure what you're referencing. The majority of media-reported issues involve pedos, but that doesn't mean a majority of priests, or even a majority of gay priests are pedos.
Stories about anybody doing good things aren't usually in the news. And there's a lot of people in many walks of life doing good things everyday.
I wanted to also say that there is a movement to classify pedophilia as a separate orientation so it makes reading the literature confusing at times, depending on whether the author supports that view or not. So to clarify something I said earlier, those with a homosexual orientation tend to have a higher rate of pedophilia, which is different than being a pedophile. The difference being does actual abuse take place?
It is the latter that studies haven't linked yet (that I am aware of). It isn't something I keep up on year after year.
It is the latter that studies haven't linked yet (that I am aware of). It isn't something I keep up on year after year.
On that note, as I was reducing my involvement with criminal law, I was at a seminar where there was a nationally prominent psychologist addressing the topic of pedophilia. Truly, one of the worst public speakers I have ever had to listen to. Like, REALLY bad. He was such an expert on the topic, that he had trouble actually talking about it. (Which kinda gets into something being discussed in another thread.)
This would've been the early 2000s. He emphasized the near-absolute recidivism of some pedophiles. He was working to scientifically quantify the risks of some over others. On the one hand, he was kinda advocating for life without parole for some of them (because science, which is a whole different issue) and something like court-authorized use of child porn for others. It was really kinda odd, and probably not a great premise for a room full of prosecutors. Well, the life without parole was a hit.
He had a terrible analogy, though, that got some awkward laughs. He apparently was smoker, and insisted that if he could wear a patch to stop from smoking, pedos could... uh... be allowed access to materials to "help" them not go after kids.
It was REALLY strange.
This would've been the early 2000s. He emphasized the near-absolute recidivism of some pedophiles. He was working to scientifically quantify the risks of some over others. On the one hand, he was kinda advocating for life without parole for some of them (because science, which is a whole different issue) and something like court-authorized use of child porn for others. It was really kinda odd, and probably not a great premise for a room full of prosecutors. Well, the life without parole was a hit.
He had a terrible analogy, though, that got some awkward laughs. He apparently was smoker, and insisted that if he could wear a patch to stop from smoking, pedos could... uh... be allowed access to materials to "help" them not go after kids.
It was REALLY strange.
BehindBlueI's
Grandmaster
- Oct 3, 2012
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I wonder if there's some other group of people, affiliated by a common interest that most often is harmless, but can sometimes do great good, but the media tends to almost exclusively print the times where something bad happens.
Nah....
That's because they are doing their job.......
This says allot to me (as well as many others). I have a great idea! How about the pope create a concrete action plan to stop his gay priests from living in sin and preying young children?
VATICAN CITY – Pope Francis on Saturday called for concrete action to combat the "emergency" of plastics littering seas and oceans, lamenting the lack of effective regulation to protect the world's waters.
Building on his papacy's concern for the environment, Francis issued a message aimed at galvanizing Christians and others to commit to saving what he hails as the "impressive and marvelous," God-given gift of the "great waters and all they contain."
"Sadly, all too often many efforts fail due to the lack of effective regulation and means of control, particularly with regard to the protection of marine areas beyond national confines," the pope wrote.
"We cannot allow our seas and oceans to be littered by endless fields of floating plastic," Francis said. "Here, too, our active commitment is needed to confront this emergency."
Francis recommended a two-pronged approach, saying: "We need to pray as if everything depended on God's providence and work as if everything depended on us."
He also denounced as "unacceptable" the privatization of water resources at the expense of the "human right to have access to this good."
With countries from Italy to Australia promoting policies to thwart migrants from arriving by sea, Francis prayed that "waters may not be a sign of separation of peoples, but of encounter for the human community."
"Let us pray that those who risk their lives at sea in search of a better future may be kept safe," Francis added.
Malta and Italy have recently cracked down on charity-run boats which aim to rescue migrants from smugglers' unseaworthy boats. Other European Union nations, such as Hungary and Poland, have refused to share the burden of caring for some of the hundreds of thousands of asylum-seekers who reached the continent's southern shores in recent years.
Francis didn't single out any countries. Instead, he directed part of his message to all politicians having to tackle migration and climate change, appealing for them to apply "generous and farsighted responsibility."
Pope decries emergency of plastics blighting world's seas | Fox News
VATICAN CITY – Pope Francis on Saturday called for concrete action to combat the "emergency" of plastics littering seas and oceans, lamenting the lack of effective regulation to protect the world's waters.
Building on his papacy's concern for the environment, Francis issued a message aimed at galvanizing Christians and others to commit to saving what he hails as the "impressive and marvelous," God-given gift of the "great waters and all they contain."
"Sadly, all too often many efforts fail due to the lack of effective regulation and means of control, particularly with regard to the protection of marine areas beyond national confines," the pope wrote.
"We cannot allow our seas and oceans to be littered by endless fields of floating plastic," Francis said. "Here, too, our active commitment is needed to confront this emergency."
Francis recommended a two-pronged approach, saying: "We need to pray as if everything depended on God's providence and work as if everything depended on us."
He also denounced as "unacceptable" the privatization of water resources at the expense of the "human right to have access to this good."
With countries from Italy to Australia promoting policies to thwart migrants from arriving by sea, Francis prayed that "waters may not be a sign of separation of peoples, but of encounter for the human community."
"Let us pray that those who risk their lives at sea in search of a better future may be kept safe," Francis added.
Malta and Italy have recently cracked down on charity-run boats which aim to rescue migrants from smugglers' unseaworthy boats. Other European Union nations, such as Hungary and Poland, have refused to share the burden of caring for some of the hundreds of thousands of asylum-seekers who reached the continent's southern shores in recent years.
Francis didn't single out any countries. Instead, he directed part of his message to all politicians having to tackle migration and climate change, appealing for them to apply "generous and farsighted responsibility."
Pope decries emergency of plastics blighting world's seas | Fox News
It is my understanding that most of that pollution comes from "non-Christian" countries. Maybe, if he'd put emphasis on missions and bringing them into the fold, many of these emergencies he's worrying about might just abate.
