CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[ArcadiaGP]

Cupich on abuse allegations: “The Pope has a bigger agenda. He's got to get on with other things, of talking about the environment and protecting migrants and carrying on the work of the church. We're not going to go down a rabbit hole on this.”

Blah blah child rape blah blah, we gotta get back to global warming

 

[T.Lex]

Except for the McCarrick thing, he's right. The Pope responded with the direction the church should go, but it is up to the local bishops and priests to implement the directions. The bishops know to what extent they were complicit in shuffling pedo priests around. They need to open up about that.

IMHO, the Pope does need to address the McCarrick situation, directly. Ideally, he'll only have to do that once.

 

[JettaKnight]

Cupich on abuse allegations: “The Pope has a bigger agenda. He's got to get on with other things, of talking about the environment and protecting migrants and carrying on the work of the church. We're not going to go down a rabbit hole on this.”

Blah blah child rape blah blah, we gotta get back to global warming

Don't forget about youth unemployment! Yes, Frank the Hippie Pope actually described that as a huge problem.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/p...evils-are-youth-unemployment-and-the-loneline

 

[ArcadiaGP]

U.S. court rejects atheists' appeal over 'In God We Trust' on money

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Defenders rally around pope, fear conservatives escalating war

Great PR by Francis's fans to portray him as the real victim in all this.

 

[BluedSteel]

Maybe the better way to say it is that the 2 situations reveal 2 different sets of problems, at the same freaking time.

ETA:
BluedSteel - have you read this link? It may help. It may not, though too.

Actually I had. Subscribed to the newsletter because of it.
If I may be forgiven for using the expression, it did my heart good to hear that there were those who were fighting the good fight right in McCarrick's face. But Fr. Daly's article makes it all too clear that at that very meeting he was the only one holding those beliefs who was willing to publicly stand for them.

But sadly, it reinforces my point. By the time Fr. Daly makes the stand he describes McCarrick had already risen to the level of Cardinal. Which, as you very well know, means that he had met all the church's prerequisitesfor [please God literally forbid] being elected Pope!

Now I am not saying or even insinuatingthat the current church has fallen so low as to do such a thing. [I will not muddy the waters by bringing up Popes of the past....]What I am saying is that I understand your point about the differences in severity being a function of who does and does not have the political clout in the church. The ability to maintain their power even when their abuses are well known. I believe I understand the nuances that you reference.

Unfortunately I think this just proves my initial, central point. McCarrick did not wait until he was a Cardinal to start abusing people. He did not rise to Cardinal without the people above him knowing what kind of man/priest he was and what he had been doing. Was doing. An organization that has known abusers, pedophiles, and serial rapists openly functioning at the highest levels of it's bureaucracy is rotten to the core. When these offenders are being actively shielded and protected by those above and beside them in the organization then that organization has lost all credibility. If the Catholic church were a publicly traded corporation with this level of scandal it's stock would have tanked; it would be in bankruptcy and soon cease to exist.

So once again, with deference and respect to you; your personal faith and that of your fellow believers - I submit to you that as an organization the Catholic church is thoroughly corrupt, morally bankrupt and in no position to dictate the path to God to anyone.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

 

[T.Lex]

So once again, with deference and respect to you; your personal faith and that of your fellow believers - I submit to you that as an organization the Catholic church is thoroughly corrupt, morally bankrupt and in no position to dictate the path to God to anyone.

In an effort to understand your conclusion, let me re-cast it the way that I am reading it: the organization that continues to take steps to acknowledge previous scars, mend new wounds, and prevent future ones is "thoroughly corrupt and morally bankrupt."

No one, not a single Catholic (that I know of), is excusing the behavior of either the pedo priests or the bishops that covered for them.

At the risk of "but Obama," where is the righteous indignation at the Protestant churches where this very same thing happens, but on a smaller scale? Or the mega-churches that are more rooted in greed and gluttony than gospel?

There's a hollow ring to the charge that the entirety of Catholicism is "thoroughly corrupt and morally bankrupt."

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Sort of on that topic, Tony Katz took a few minutes to stop talking about himself yesterday and opined on the Catholic church news.

He's apparently very anti-'organized religion'. Took a couple calls, and the callers (Catholics) said they don't put the Church above God... which I think we've talked about here. Katz had a hard time disassociating the two with regards to the news. I think one caller even said their Church talked about the situation.

Also, three news outlets yesterday had headlines of "Conservatives pounce" about the news. Yep, that's what to focus on.

Got to defend the Pope because he's an environmentalist or something... write about those damn conservatives instead.

Edit: At Pope Francis’ appearance in St. Peter’s Square today, the crowd started chanting, “Vi-ga-nò! Vi-ga-nò! Vi-ga-nò!”

 

[historian]

Defenders rally around pope, fear conservatives escalating war

Great PR by Francis's fans to portray him as the real victim in all this.

When you get beat by satire:

https://babylonbee.com/news/pope-sa...ce-hes-finished-talking-about-climate-change/

Cardinal Cupich defends his record, Pope Francis in response to former Vatican official - Chicago Tribune

 

[historian]

LOL:

https://babylonbee.com/news/local-catholic-starting-to-think-church-needs-reformation/

 

[T.Lex]

Sort of on that topic, Tony Katz took a few minutes to stop talking about himself yesterday and opined on the Catholic church news.

He's apparently very anti-'organized religion'. Took a couple calls, and the callers (Catholics) said they don't put the Church above God... which I think we've talked about here. Katz had a hard time disassociating the two with regards to the news. I think one caller even said their Church talked about the situation.

Also, three news outlets yesterday had headlines of "Conservatives pounce" about the news. Yep, that's what to focus on.

Got to defend the Pope because he's an environmentalist or something... write about those damn conservatives instead.

Edit: At Pope Francis’ appearance in St. Peter’s Square today, the crowd started chanting, “Vi-ga-nò! Vi-ga-nò! Vi-ga-nò!”

The Catholic Church, as an entity that spans hundreds of cultures and millions of perspectives, is fraught with the temptations of politics. There are groups, in fact, that would welcome a return to the Latin mass. Yep, the entire Sunday service would go back to being in Latin. Because... you know... nothing bad ever happened back when we did that.

I bring that up as an illustration that the same dynamic that allowed McCarrick to hold power can also use that situation as leverage to "liberalize" (relatively) aspects of church activities. NOT doctrine (although in some places, that may not be a bad idea), but implementation, for lack of a better word.

The Church has been around a long time. This is really bad. But, in some ways, this probably isn't even the worst thing it has gone through. Those responsible should be repentant and do their penance. Those not responsible should work to make things better.

It is kinda simple.

 

[T.Lex]

LOL:

https://babylonbee.com/news/local-catholic-starting-to-think-church-needs-reformation/

Ok, I love when you guys post the Babylon Bee stuff, but THAT was particularly funny to me.

 

[Ziggidy]

It is kinda simple.

That is a very very funny statement.

It's kinda simple? Children have been sodomized, raped, coerced to have oral, anal, vaginal sex with PRIESTS and the solution is simple? There have been DECADES of coverups at high levels in the church, including the pope himself and "it is kinda simple"?

"isn't the worse thing it has gone through"? What can be so worse than a child being raped by a priest. Having a priest put his manhood in a child - in all orifices?

Isn't the worse? For who? All of a sudden people appear to be making the church out to be a victim here; oh, those holy righteous men who cover up the sick bastards that raped, humiliated and scarred these children for their life.

Yea, it's kinda simple. If it is so simple, then get your arse out there and stop it.

Those responsible should repent and do penance? Is it really that simple?

 

[T.Lex]

That is a very very funny statement.

It's kinda simple? Children have been sodomized, raped, coerced to have oral, anal, vaginal sex with PRIESTS and the solution is simple? There have been DECADES of coverups at high levels in the church, including the pope himself and "it is kinda simple"?

"isn't the worse thing it has gone through"? What can be so worse than a child being raped by a priest. Having a priest put his manhood in a child - in all orifices?

Isn't the worse? For who? All of a sudden people appear to be making the church out to be a victim here; oh, those holy righteous men who cover up the sick bastards that raped, humiliated and scarred these children for their life.

Yea, it's kinda simple. If it is so simple, then get your arse out there and stop it.

Those responsible should repent and do penance? Is it really that simple?

So.

First, yes, it really is that simple. That it is simple does not mean that it is easy. Christians, of all people, should understand that concept.

Second, INGO is but one narrow part of my life. My faith is a far greater piece. I am part of the efforts to remediate and prevent it. I am - and have been - getting my "arse" out there. Along with plenty of others.

While I appreciate your zeal, I don't really appreciate the condescension. I mean really, we're all adults here. Is the graphic language REALLY necessary for a civil discussion?

 

[Ziggidy]

So.

First, yes, it really is that simple. That it is simple does not mean that it is easy. Christians, of all people, should understand that concept.

Second, INGO is but one narrow part of my life. My faith is a far greater piece. I am part of the efforts to remediate and prevent it. I am - and have been - getting my "arse" out there. Along with plenty of others.

While I appreciate your zeal, I don't really appreciate the condescension. I mean really, we're all adults here. Is the graphic language REALLY necessary for a civil discussion?

Yes, I do believe we need (at times) to get graphic with restraint - as I did. Condescending? Really? You understand that this has been going on for decades, at least to our attention for that long. If it was so simple to fix, then why on earth is it getting worse with each report? Why is it reaching all levels of the church? A MASSIVE coverup on all levels?

Sometimes we need to be a little graphic to remember the ugliness of the situation, the crime. We have become somewhat desensitized by words alone and need a wake up call to reality. Believe me, what I posted is not any where near the visual that actually happened to those little children who were raped. It's child porn in the flesh being covered up by self righteous men pretending to be godly.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Pulling a one-liner out of a larger post, then focusing and attacking that one line... is not really a great way to have a conversation.

This doesn't even need to be said, but I don't think anyone here is making light of what's going on.

 

[T.Lex]

Yes, I do believe we need (at times) to get graphic with restraint - as I did. Condescending? Really? You understand that this has been going on for decades, at least to our attention for that long. If it was so simple to fix, then why on earth is it getting worse with each report? Why is it reaching all levels of the church? A MASSIVE coverup on all levels?

Sometimes we need to be a little graphic to remember the ugliness of the situation, the crime. We have become somewhat desensitized by words alone and need a wake up call to reality. Believe me, what I posted is not any where near the visual that actually happened to those little children who were raped. It's child porn in the flesh being covered up by self righteous men pretending to be godly.

Getting worse with each report? That's actually not true, if you are actually paying attention. The breadth of the historical problem, maybe, but the Pennsylvania report actually confirms that things are getting better within the church. There is better oversight and disclosure about issues when they arise.

It is not yet where it needs to be, but it is getting there.

So, what are you doing to get off your arse and do something about it? Other than slamming the entirety of the Catholic church on a gun forum? Is your own faith tradition unafflicted by these issues?

 

[foszoe]

Yes, I do believe we need (at times) to get graphic with restraint - as I did. Condescending? Really? You understand that this has been going on for decades, at least to our attention for that long. If it was so simple to fix, then why on earth is it getting worse with each report? Why is it reaching all levels of the church? A MASSIVE coverup on all levels?

These are not "new". So if you mean by "worse" the scope of past abuses yes. If however, you mean "worse" as in worse in 2018 than in 2000 than that claim would need substantiation.

I posted links to what the Roman Catholic Church has done to address this issue along with what others, such as the Southern Baptists have done in earlier posts. Nothing compares to Roman Catholic approach at this point.

 

[JettaKnight]

Let's remember this is a civil discussion thread. This isn't the general political forum, we behave with much more respect here.

We're not here to bash someone else's religious beliefs, but to learn from them.