CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[Benp]

To say that He could not reveal Himself to Mohammed is to limit Him.

God has revealed Himself to people in the past, so it IS possible, but what was revealed to Mohammed doesn't mesh with the teachings of Jesus.

 

[ATM]

So you are saying God loves poo?

You're embracing Calvin's Christianity claims.

What if God loves us but hates the poo we smear ourselves and each other with?

What if God loves what we were designed to be but laments that what we choose to be is something far less?

What if God wanted an intimate relationship filled with knowledge but we chose limited knowledge apart from Him?

What if those questions are more important than any of our answers?

How does Islam answer them?

 

[T.Lex]

A friend of mine once quipped something along the lines of, "A sufficiently advanced deity is indistinguishable from technology."

 

[T.Lex]

God has revealed Himself to people in the past, so it IS possible, but what was revealed to Mohammed doesn't mesh with the teachings of Jesus.

That's kinda the crux (pardon the pun) of the problem. Some of it does, and some of it doesn't.

Along these same lines, I believe God has revealed Himself to me. Little ole me. I'm nobody. Now, I don't claim to have all the answers, and don't intend on starting anything different. But, I also don't feel like I'm expected to. He knows me. My ongoing prayer is for Him to guide me on the path He intends for me.

I would hope that, like Noah, if He asked me to do something that seems objectively crazy, that I would trust what He revealed to me enough to do so.

 

[hog slayer]

God has revealed Himself to people in the past, so it IS possible, but what was revealed to Mohammed doesn't mesh with the teachings of Jesus.

maybe a more accurate reflection Benp end state is that what Muhammad recorded being revealed does not align. God surely revealed himself to Muhammad.

If I misrepresented you, Ben, I apologize

 

[ATM]

This is not a challenge for a boxing or wrestling belt where you or your handlers can pick and choose the most personally advantageous match-up. It is more like a jousting tourney where chivalry requires you to meet all contestants on the field of honour

jamil has thrown down the gauntlet, couch you lance or retire

Jamil has retreated to the limited position of attempting to avoid reaching any conclusions that can't be proven objectively.

He is not even on the field, he's hiding in a tiny little tent far from the contest, far from any challenges.

I live on this field.

 

[Benp]

That's kinda the crux (pardon the pun) of the problem. Some of it does, and some of it doesn't.

Along these same lines, I believe God has revealed Himself to me. Little ole me. I'm nobody. Now, I don't claim to have all the answers, and don't intend on starting anything different. But, I also don't feel like I'm expected to. He knows me. My ongoing prayer is for Him to guide me on the path He intends for me.

I would hope that, like Noah, if He asked me to do something that seems objectively crazy, that I would trust what He revealed to me enough to do so.

Absolutely, it's up to each of us to have our own relationship with God. Through studying and prayer we can build that relationship. We can't ride the coattails of someone's else's beliefs, we must believe ourselves. And hopefully we aren't given plans for a big ark sometime down the road

 

[T.Lex]

To briefly build on that, those that challenge Islam as false may (or may not) believe they are acting on God's wishes revealed to them. I'll not argue for or against that.

God is infinitely complicated enough to be asking us both to pursue our respective roles in this matter.

 

[ATM]

...We can't ride the coattails of someone's else's beliefs...

Sadly, this is the common case. This is why people demand respect for beliefs. This is why people give respect to beliefs.

Beliefs are not to be respected, they are to be scrutinized and if possible torn down. Only those that survive may be worthy of holding ...for now

...until I find another angle to attack them.

 

[ATM]

To briefly build on that, those that challenge Islam as false may (or may not) believe they are acting on God's wishes revealed to them. I'll not argue for or against that.

God is infinitely complicated enough to be asking us both to pursue our respective roles in this matter.

Of course He is!

 

[hog slayer]

For Think:

What's the difference between a religion that commands it's followers to violence on unbelievers and a religion that only sounds like it commands it's followers to violence on unbelievers?

Just bumping this

 

[Benp]

maybe a more accurate reflection Benp end state is that what Muhammad recorded being revealed does not align. God surely revealed himself to Muhammad.

If I misrepresented you, Ben, I apologize

I can't say whether God actually appeared to Muhammad or not. I will say that according to Islamic doctrine he was God's messenger, but his message was not a message of "forgiveness", "love your enemies", "turning the other cheek", and all of the other things that God in the flesh taught when he was in human form. It's possible he was given a message, but I don't believe that the full message that Muhammad presented to the world was the complete message that was given to him.

 

[BugI02]

What you are missing is what I stated above. Not every Muslim believes every belief you've ascribed to them. Not every Muslim interprets their Quran the way you have. The "not 1.8 billion muslims are terrorists" argument is an adequate, empirical rebuttal of your theoretical argument. A theory ain't **** if its rubber can't meet the road.

Jamil, I can only speak for myself. What bothers me is not that the percentage of Muslims who perpetrate or support violent jihad does not rise to a sufficiently high enough numerical threshold, ignoring for the moment that it is still far more than the number of Christians who use similar methodology

What bothers me is that Muslims can apparently employ these methods and lie about their goals and intent, even to the point in some cases of denying the shahada, without violating the precepts of their religion or seperating themselves from their god

This is simply not true of Christianity. To deny God or distort his message cannot be justified by the book and is the road to damnation

I am more trusting of adherents of a religion that condemns the worst excesses of humanity without exception than I am of adherents of a religion that makes allowable exceptions. This would be true of religions that I am not adherent to. I would trust a Buddhist over a Muslim in this context

 

[ATM]

...but I don't believe that the full message that Muhammad presented to the world was the complete message that was given to him.

The Quran was the full and exact message given to him. I believe this with at least the conviction of any Muslim.

 

[Benp]

Probably the biggest element in the bible is "faith." God could easily reveal Himself to us physically and we would have no need of faith because we would actually see, but all throughout the bible you see that God wants us to develop faith. And this is so hard for us to do because we want evidence, and to be able to know for certain. We want a formula that we can follow and see that what we believe is 100% true, and so it's difficult to have faith. But God also says to believe His word, follow Him, and see that His way works. God's commandments are for our own good, they weren't meant to restrict us and keep us from having fun, but instead they were to keep us on the road instead of going into a ditch.

 

[Benp]

The Quran was the full and exact message given to him. I believe this with at least the conviction of any Muslim.

I was just giving my opinion.

 

[BugI02]

Lying in order to advance one’s faith is not an Islamic doctrine and has never been. I challenge anyone to bring one proof from the Quran or Hadith where it says that ‘one can use deception to advance Islam. ’ You won’t find it

This word itself 'taqiyya" doesn't exist in the quran

"Telling the truth" is a basic Islamic rule;

“And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is). (Qur’an, 2:42)”

“O ye who believe! Stand out firmly For justice, as witnesses To Allah, even as against Yourselves, or your parents, Or your kin, and whether It be (against) rich or poor: For Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (Of your hearts), lest ye Swerve, and if ye Distort (justice) or decline To do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do. (Qur’an, 4:135)”

“...Help ye one another In righteousness and piety, But help ye not one another In sin and rancour: Fear Allah: for Allah Is strict in punishment. (Qur’an, 5:2)”

“O ye who believe! Stand out firmly For Allah, as witnesses To fair dealing, and let not The hatred of others To you make you swerve To wrong and depart from Justice. Be just: that is Next to Piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do. (Qur’an, 5:8)”

“O you who believe, you shall reverence GOD, and be among the truthful.” (Qur’an 9:119)
Kid's Corner: Telling the Truth

The only ayah that allow muslims to lie to save their lives is Quran 16:106:
"Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief… except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah, and for them is a great punishment."

This ayah was revealed because some Muslims (Companions of Prophet Muhammad (p)) were tortured and uttered disbelief so that the persecutors stopped tormenting them. Although they uttered the words, they still believed in Islam, and merely said it so the persecution stops. Hence, the Quran states that those who had done such, there is no blame on them for what they did, and said these things when they were in a situation where it meant either to live and continually be under torture or be put to death. So, there was no sin on those who said things which were contrary to what they believed in their heart.

I hope that answers your point.

Taqiyya: Deception and Lying in Islam

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."
There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

 

[ATM]

...God could easily reveal Himself to us physically and we would have no need of faith because we would actually see...

God did this as a pillar of fire leading a nation in the wilderness, didn't He? That sort of "seeing is believing" lasted less than 40 days before they built themselves an idol to worship, right?

Guess God can't go on a mountain retreat if seeing is believing.

 

[ATM]

I was just giving my opinion.

I appreciate it, even though I do not respect opinions.

 

[BugI02]

He admitted not reading most of the thread , so he probably didn't see the proper application of the argument against a particular claim of Islam that he won't be able to reconcile.

As he attempted to misapply it as a general question of Mohammed, it leaves the lunatic (deluded) choice by far the most reasonable to conclude.

I hope that sinks in and he goes back to try resolving what could only be abandoned earlier in this thread.

I submit that this thread, like so many, is like an NBA game; you can have just as much fun tuning in to the last five minutes as 'watching' from start to finish